Comments on Scottish Unionist: Nat Con in Glasgow North East

Timing is everything eh? And from this we are sup...

2009-08-12T13:37:22.759+01:00

Timing is everything eh?

And from this we are supposed to deduce that the valiant defenders of the Union are preparing a watertight legal case to prevent the Scottish Government putting forward a referendum on independence.

I think not.

1. You have no case.

2. The real (elected) defenders of the Union (who have some understanding of politics) know that nothing could be more fatal to their case than the sight of a legal case designed to prevent the people of Scotland having the right to decide their own future.

For that reason however I would fully support any such moves and urge you to proceed with one, ignoring all advice to the contrary - indeed I would happily contribute to any fighting fund you may be setting up......

I shall look forward to it's testing immensely...

2009-08-11T21:25:13.810+01:00

I shall look forward to it's testing immensely:-)

"After removing the pin with his teeth, Agent...

2009-08-11T19:21:22.328+01:00

"After removing the pin with his teeth, Agent SM753 gently rolled the small grenade bearing the words "Texas. v White" into the discussion, then crept stealthily away."

Timing is everything, Observer.

2009-08-11T17:50:39.339+01:00

Timing is everything, Observer.

Well if any of it is illegal, either the referendu...

2009-08-11T17:41:32.940+01:00

Well if any of it is illegal, either the referendum or the consultation, then take it to judicial review. It's not difficult to do that.

non-story –noun 1. any set of facts ...

2009-08-11T17:27:43.622+01:00

non-story
–noun
1. any set of facts or circumstances which stubbornly refuses to articulate with the desired narrative.
2. an inconvenient truth, the acknowledgement of which would require the extraction of one's head from the proverbial sand.

Yes I did read the article. The professor says ...

2009-08-11T15:22:01.648+01:00

Yes I did read the article.

The professor says nothing pertinent. He does not state that a referendum would be outwith the competence of the parliament.

Cameron Fyffe does not say that he or anybody he represents will be pursuing any action.

It is, like so many things you post, a non-story.

You clearly didn’t even read the rest of the artic...

2009-08-11T14:46:04.916+01:00

You clearly didn’t even read the rest of the article.

Cameron Fyfe: “I have thought for many years that even the arranging of a referendum would be outwith the ambit of the Scottish Parliament. The legislation is so unambiguous that the prospects of success would be high. For that reason we would be more than happy to pursue an action for a client wishing to do so.”

Prof. Anthony Carty: “An act of parliament is not law if it is outside the legislative competence of the Parliament. It is outside of that legislative competence if it relates to a reserved matter. A reserved matter is the union between Scotland and England. Having a referendum on whether this union should continue is clearly something which relates to a reserved matter.”

No it is not an open question. The fact that two ...

2009-08-11T14:21:15.023+01:00

No it is not an open question. The fact that two un-named clients allegedly approached a lawyer to seek legal advice is neither here nor there. What legal advice did they receive - that is more to the point. Since we have heard nothing since September 2008 when that story was published I suggest that the advice they received was that the referendum was fully within the competence of the devolved parliament.

The draft bill on the referendum was after all published back in 2007. Neither the draft bill nor the national conversation has been challenged in the courts or anywhere else - I don't count people like you trying to cast doubt on it in the blogosphere as that is just a political tactic.

Observer: Have you read this commentary in Scottish law journal The Firm? Key quote:

“Litigation specialist Cameron Fyfe has been approached separately by two clients who are intending to interdict the Presiding Officer should an independence debate be mooted, and to seek a judicial review of any action taken by the Holyrood Parliament on the basis that it has no competence to do so. The legal aid board could even fund such an action as a test case in the public interest. On a bare reading of the Scotland Act, he says they seem to be entirely correct.”

Indy:

I didn't “insist that the power to conduct a consultative referendum on independence is reserved”. It’s quite clearly still an open question.

It does not remain to be seen whether a referendum...

2009-08-11T13:43:34.860+01:00

It does not remain to be seen whether a referendum is 'constitutional'. It remains to be seen whether the Scottish Parliament votes for the bill.

It is fully competent however. That is not in question.

You are simply wrong to insist that the power to conduct a consultative referendum on independence is reserved.

SU, the Nationalist Conversation consists of a ser...

2009-08-11T10:40:22.776+01:00

SU, the Nationalist Conversation consists of a series of local rallies for SNP activists, with the odd curious member of the public popping in to see what the comedy is all about.

It's funded by the tax payer of course, and I agree it is probably an abuse of public funds and civil servants time. If Labour or Tory were to act in this unprincipled manner they would be getting high-minded pelters from the SNP and its online acolytes...

But that's Nationalist politicians for you.... Everybody else has to reach the highest moral standards, or it's helltopay, but we're just liberating a few bob from the gas meter for charitable uses, 'onest guv...

Pathetic in a way, but not unexpected...

Scottish Unionist. The Scottish Government would ...

2009-08-10T20:17:52.651+01:00

Scottish Unionist. The Scottish Government would not have embarked upon this public consultation excercise (which I freely admit has the added benefit of allowing them to promote independence) unless it were judged a proper and legal use of public money - by the civil service. The same civil servants who are now being attacked by Lord Foulkes et al for being politicised.

Now either we have to imagine that the Scottish Civil Service are in fact all well placed moles, or have been radicalised by Salmond to the extent that they have lost their senses, or in fact the expenditure of public money has been judged wholly legal in pursuance of a manifesto commitment.

If the unionist parties really think that Salmond is playing fast and loose with Government cash in an illegal or even unethical way, they have an easy solution. Take his Govt down - they could do it at will if they combined together to do so.

The fact that they are not leads me to believe that they know fine well that this consultation is entirely proper and legal, no matter how much they just don't like it.

Oh, good grief! I see the SNP is even offering wha...

2009-08-10T19:26:47.851+01:00

Oh, good grief! I see the SNP is even offering what I presume to be a "free lunch" (at the taxpayer's expense) to those willing to go along and be talked at about independence!

Your position is untenable, Indy. A consultative r...

2009-08-10T18:47:42.757+01:00

Your position is untenable, Indy. A consultative referendum in the form proposed by the SNP may or may not be constitutional; that remains to be seen.

But that isn’t what we’re discussing. This thread is about the allocation of public resources by the SNP administration to promote a goal which is explicitly reserved.

That isn’t a manifesto commitment like any other.

Re. the Calman Commission, you’re wrong there too. You could have made a written submission.

You keep going round in circles SU. Public money i...

2009-08-10T18:19:39.803+01:00

You keep going round in circles SU. Public money is being used to meet a manifesto commitment.

A referendum on independence is a manifesto commitment the same as any other. Perhaps that is the sticking point for you.

Evidently you believe that the SCottish Government should not be allowed to do anything to promote independence - but they have as much right to promote independence as they do to promote any other policy that they were elected on.

There is no reason why they should not devote public money to a referendum on independence because it is not reserved. The power to declare independence as such is reserved but there is no reservation on the right of the Scottish Government to discuss it and put it to a vote.

Incidentally I could not have submitted a 'representative' to the Calman COmmission as you suggest because it was not open to the public.

Wardog, Observer: Valiant attempts to deflect fro...

2009-08-10T17:49:55.042+01:00

Wardog, Observer:

Valiant attempts to deflect from the topic in hand. But answer me two simple questions.

1. Why is public money being used for an SNP campaign?

2. Why is the devolved executive devoting public resources to a reserved area?

"scurrilous accusations of attempting to use ...

2009-08-09T11:15:30.538+01:00

"scurrilous accusations of attempting to use the power of incumbency to influence this Election"

The hypocrisy in that statement won't be lost on anyone not in the Labour Party.

As the National Conversation events have been dism...

2009-08-08T18:31:40.283+01:00

As the National Conversation events have been dismissed by our Unionist chumrades, as poorly attended Nat talking shop, one has to wonder what exactly they are afraid of in making this complaint. Besides, nobody knows when the byelection will be held, we're told November but Broon might spit the dummy again and hold for longer.

Incidentally, I cant imagine there are many 'spindoctors' willing to work for £29,000 pa. I would suggest that your Communication Officers are more likely to be employed in a number of diverse governmental posts.

Andrew From my perspective both Calman and the NC...

2009-08-08T10:29:44.146+01:00

Andrew

From my perspective both Calman and the NC are a waste of time and money, but as to which is the least attractive I wouldn't really like to try to precisely compare the two or attempt to quantify which is the "bigger con"!

Given the controversy and the snp Governments wish...

2009-08-08T09:44:45.415+01:00

Given the controversy and the snp Governments wish to be non partisan.

they will of course move the venue so as to avoid any scurrilous accusations of attempting to use the power of incumbency to influence this Election.

Um i wont hold me breath

The unionists complaints seem to be based on sheer...

2009-08-08T09:20:46.253+01:00

The unionists complaints seem to be based on sheer pettiness.

Their rather bitter points rely on the assumption that the SNP can tell the future and that having a link to a government initiative on your party website is tantament to using public money for 'party benefit'.

I mean really, is this the best that the finest minds in the unionist camp can up with?

Sheer petty minded obstruction.

They are entirely entitled to presetn their unionist arguments in the national conversation, whereas my views on indepdence were not allowed in Calman.

Says it all.

Unionism as an increasingly concerning fascination with closing down debate, refusing the people a choice and to some degree censorship.

Time to think again.

Where is your positive unionist propsectus?

And the reason why they are vexatious complaints i...

2009-08-08T08:57:30.419+01:00

And the reason why they are vexatious complaints is because none of them have been substantiated, despite the fact that if you requested written evidence of all the complaints that have been submitted, you would need a wheelbarrow to take them home with you.

SU - where is the reference to the Calman commissi...

2009-08-08T08:54:50.789+01:00

SU - where is the reference to the Calman commission in any of the unionist parties manifestos?

" using Scottish Government resources to prom...

2009-08-08T08:46:10.816+01:00

" using Scottish Government resources to promote SNP policy "

Is there anything preventing you attending AM2 and expressing yuor unionist views?

Can you confirm that the national conversation includes atleast three distinct futures for the Scottish Parliament?