Comments on Scottish Unionist: “Them” and “us”

In the interests of brevity, I'll take your paragr...

2008-10-23T17:50:00.000+01:00

In the interests of brevity, I'll take your paragraphs in turn.

1. Highlighting these views adds tremendously to the debate, because dig deeply enough and you often find that they're not as "extreme" or representative of a "fringe" as you and I might like to think.

2. Scotland has self-determination. I thought we'd established that. Right now, we are self-determining to remain part of Britain.

3. Quite a good riposte, but its Achilles' Heel is that it throws into sharp relief the real reason why the SNP really wants broadcasting and media to come under Scottish parliament control. Your point about what people want doesn't hold together. A majority in Scotland don't even want a so-called "Scottish Six".

4. I didn't "fail to mention" any of those, no more than I failed to mention J.S. Bach or the Higgs boson. I was referring to shared British culture, whereas you have highlighted distinctively or at least particularly Scottish elements. But in fact, such distinctive elements are part of British culture too. It's not uniform. I mentioned Welsh male voice choirs, as part of my own cultural gamut. And by the same token, many in Wales no doubt greatly appreciate and indeed identify with Scottish music.

SU

You yourself have discredited these '...

2008-10-23T01:06:00.000+01:00

SU

You yourself have discredited these 'featured CyberNats' simply by featuring them on your blog for no other reason than to belittle inane or stupid comments. Most of the time, I agree with what you say, although I'm not sure if highlighting these extreme views adds anything to the debate.

Whether the 7.2% is an SNP survey or not is irrelevant. There is no reason to doubt this figure as it relates closely to the 8% of people of English origin or birthplace (we agree then) currently living in Scotland. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence out there to suggest those of English origin are almost as likely to want self determination for the distinct country they live in: two of my closest friends vote SNP. One is from Newcastle, the other Norwich.

Why only the mention of bagpipes? You could have mentioned shortbread and tartan. I concede that a large chunk of our culture is shared, and you've given some good examples, but that's partly because of the increasingly London-centric television production. In spite of evidence to suggest that this is not what people of Scotland, N.Ireland or Wales really want. (Evidence not just from the SNPs 'SBC', but also from the BBC Trustees.)

You failed to mention Burns, Scott, Bruce, sporting teams, shinty, music & dance (not just bagpipes), Scots, Doric, Gaelic, law, banking (topical), education, churches, Scottish Enlightenment, clans, North Sea Oil industry, food & drink, whisky, Scottish comedy, Highland Games, The Scotsman, Jim Traynor, etc, etc... Many of these things are not shared with other parts of the UK, but have shaped the lives of those who live in Scotland.

SU, this time you have gone too far. The Old Firm ...

2008-10-22T19:07:00.000+01:00

SU, this time you have gone too far. The Old Firm AND Chic Young????????

I'd willingly give them to the Nats on a Bosman.

But in respect of your request at the end:

...

2008-10-22T18:37:00.000+01:00

But in respect of your request at the end:

Nimbyism prevails, but an April 2007 ICM poll for the BBC found that 51% even of would-be SNP voters said they agreed with the proposition that “Britain should continue to have nuclear weapons”.

Indy

Oh my word, where to start?!

Ac...

2008-10-22T18:21:00.000+01:00

Indy

Oh my word, where to start?!

Actually, I really can’t be bothered. You’re putting words into my mouth and ascribing to me views which I don’t hold. From there all you’re actually arguing against is your own false constructions. G-S has a point.

Andrew

Who is my “discredited” source: the ...

2008-10-22T18:14:00.000+01:00

Andrew

Who is my “discredited” source: the CyberNat quoted at the top, or Joe Middleton? And why do you think he is discredited? Simply because his “us”/ “they” thinking is more overt than one hears from SNP politicians?

Or is it? Here’s the SNP’s Ross Vettraino, a Fife councillor: “They’re so bloody arrogant. The English think they are the United Kingdom.”

I’m intrigued by your 7.2% figure. I believe that it related to birthplace, so the studiously “Scottish not English” Christine Grahame and Michael “call me Mike” Russell (born in England but keen to let us all know that he’s not of English “blood”) would have been included.

But anyway, how did they ask? Was it a “where were you born” tickbox? And was the motive for asking the question known to the respondents? Apologies for my cynicism in this, but the SNP has form.

Your penultimate paragraph was fascinating. You see Scottish and English culture as distinct, with overlapping elements. Bagpipes and morris dancers, writ large.

But culture, to me, is so very much more: it’s Beatrix Potter characters, Chick Young, conkers, Delia Smith, the Grand National, Marmite, Monty Python, nine lessons and carols, the Old Firm, Punch and Judy, Robert Louis Stevenson, rugby, Spike Milligan, twice-a-week Aldi offers, Welsh male voice choirs, Wilfred Owen – and so very much more. It’s the sum total of our interactions, of our experience in this country (Britain). And the vast majority of that is shared. The distinctively Scottish, Welsh, English and/or NI elements sit within, on top of and around the common core. In only relatively few cases do they actually replace other elements of our shared British culture.

Yes I agree that we can make our own choices about...

2008-10-22T09:38:00.000+01:00

Yes I agree that we can make our own choices about independence. I have never said otherwise. (although if I were you I would be careful about suggesting that an electoral victory for the SNP is a mandate for independence because I don’t really think it is). And of course by making the choice to become independent we can make our own choices about many other matters as well. The argument that wanting independence for Scotland makes us narrow minded nationalists who want to divide the world into 'us' and 'them' does not follow from that.

It’s a false argument, just as your argument that I am anti-American because I do not agree with US foreign policy. Many Americans disagree with the direction of US foreign policy. Are they also anti-American? Although by applying that logic I can see how you end up believing that people who are opposed to Westminster governing Scotland are anti English. But you are fundamentally confused. People like me want Scotland to take her own decisions because we think that will result in better decision making and better outcomes, not because we dislike the English people.

Incidentally I would be grateful if you could post any opinion poll evidence which shows a majority support a new nuclear deterrent being sited in Scotland.

Good evening SU

The point you make is based...

2008-10-21T22:10:00.000+01:00

Good evening SU

The point you make is based on a comment from your own 'discredited' source, because for most credible supporters of independence, it's not really about "them or us".

Consider a recent poster's evidence that 7.2% of delegates at the SNP conference were of 'English' origin. How does that then fit with "them and us" being the driver for self-determination?

Scotland is a country, just as sure as England is a country. It has it's own distinct culture, some of which is shared with it's union partner, it's own education and legal systems, even it's own parliament. There is no doubting that. It's only a region in corporate UK and on the BBC.

In terms of sharing culture, perhaps residents of Boston would have more in common with folks in Toronto than those in smalltown Oklahoma. Such differences are apparent across the globe.

Indy

For the record, when last surveyed, a ...

2008-10-21T18:54:00.000+01:00

Indy

For the record, when last surveyed, a majority of people (albeit a fairly slim majority) in Scotland wanted Britain to retain its nuclear deterrent.

I have no idea how many are anti-American.

But that’s not the central issue, which again relates to sovereignty. Your comment that “I would like Scotland to be able to make our own choices...” is falsely premised. We can make our own choices. Even Alex Salmond acknowledges that!

“At each and every election we have the ability to vote ourselves into independence. And if we choose not to do that, then that is my fault for not arguing the case well enough, our fault as a party for not campaigning hard enough, our fault as a country for not having the guts or the gumptions for freedom.” – Alex Salmond

Now, while I disagree both with Salmond’s rather insulting view that we lack “guts and gumption” and his characterisation of independence as “freedom”, I can’t fault him for correctly observing that each election presents an opportunity for the people of Scotland to vote for either continued membership of the United Kingdom or independence, and that on every such occasion we have chosen the former.

So Scotland is entirely free to leave the United Kingdom, and thereafter to leave the EU, NATO or whatever else might conceivably be seen as limiting our “freedom”, but doesn’t want to.

Then perhaps we are coming to the heart of things ...

2008-10-21T18:41:00.000+01:00

Then perhaps we are coming to the heart of things SU. You are quite happy with the balance of things - being tied to American foreign policy, having nuclear weapons and so on. I am not. But that difference of opinion does not make me less of an internationalist than you are. Indeed I think US foreign policy objectives are selfish and against the interests of the rest of the planet in economic and environmental terms. That's why I don't agree with the current balance.

We have options about this. We by which I mean the Scottish electorate don't have to have nuclear weapons in our country, we don't have to be tied to US foreign policy. Other European countries don't, Scotland doesn't have to either. But the only way that we can change the situation is by taking those decisions for ourselves.

I would like Scotland to be able to make our own choices about these matters, to speak with our own voice in the world because of what we can contribute, not because I don't want us to be involved. I do want us to be involved in a way that we cannot be now because we are not an independent member of the community of nations.

As for comments about the ‘nationalist’ system of government coming down to a sectarian headcount – what does that even mean? Is the system of government of every independent country in the world a sectarian headcount? That’s meaningless.

DG

Agreed. British nationalism is no more a...

2008-10-21T18:36:00.000+01:00

DG

Agreed. British nationalism is no more appealing to me than its Scottish counterpart. And while I'm not at present entirely convinced by the case for federalism, subsidiarity features heavily in my thinking. As I've said before, I'm decentralist by instinct and unionist (both within and outwith the UK) by conviction. Nationalism plays no part whatsoever.

"So you are not arguing on principle, you are argu...

2008-10-21T18:26:00.000+01:00

"So you are not arguing on principle, you are arguing about where the level of national responsibility and decision making should be. You say London, I say Edinburgh. That's it really."

Indeed, you're quite right there. That is the crux of nationalism; what Scottish nationalists will rarely admit however is that their goals are just as legitimate as those of British nationalists and thus their system of government basically comes down to a sectarian headcount.

I am not a nationalist, I reject the arguments made from both sizes on this matter. I believe in a federal solution governed by the principles of subsidiarity. I would have no problem with soldiers from the UK being part of an EU Army ultimately. I wouldn't even mind if the Union Jack on the town hall was replaced with a UN flag: I'd still be British, just as I am still Scottish after three hundred years of union; identity does not need to have a political dimension.

-------
Incidentally, SU - I've encountered this Joe Middleton character you mention before. He's nothing but a racist bigot.

Re: "It's just a different them and us."

Yo...

2008-10-21T17:56:00.000+01:00

Re: "It's just a different them and us."

You think so? My "us" could be Scotland, the United Kingdom, the EU27, the Commonwealth, NATO nations, the UN Security Council, the G7, the G8 - and so on.

What's your "us"?

Actually, Britain has ceded a certain amoun...

2008-10-21T17:47:00.000+01:00

Actually, Britain has ceded a certain amount of sovereignty over defence policy - not at present to the EU, but to the USA, in respect of our nuclear deterrent.

Fine by me. It's a voluntary arrangement and we could reclaim that power at any time, as indeed could Scotland reclaim full powers imply by voting for it.

Just because we could doesn't mean we should, however. These sovereignty issues are - or at least should be - more about pragmatism and international reach than misdirected nationalistic emotion. On that basis, the current balance seems about right.

But Britain has not ceded sovereignty over defence...

2008-10-21T17:36:00.000+01:00

But Britain has not ceded sovereignty over defence policy or foreign policy to the EU and never will. Neither will any other member state.

Scotland has ceded sovereignty. Many of us are not happy about that and want to change the position by having those powers transferred to the Scottish Parliament.

That does not mean that we see the world in more of 'them-and-us' terms than anyone else. It's just a different them and us.

If as a nation, Britain had ceded sovereignty for ...

2008-10-21T17:31:00.000+01:00

If as a nation, Britain had ceded sovereignty for such matters to the EU, then yes - of course I would. That's democracy.

And Scotland has repeatedly given its consent for decisions (including those relating to the nature of our EU membership) to be taken at UK level.

So there's no contradiction between what Scotland wants and what Britain wants. Even when the two don't tally, that doesn't doesn't override the constitutional principle.

Let's turn it around - would you be happy for the ...

2008-10-21T17:20:00.000+01:00

Let's turn it around - would you be happy for the EU to take the decision on Trident replacement? Would you be happy for the UN to order UK troops out of Iraq?

I don't think you would be.

So you are not arguing on principle, you are arguing about where the level of national responsibility and decision making should be. You say London, I say Edinburgh. That's it really.

Google "joemiddleton" "11-1" and you'll see that t...

2008-10-21T17:10:00.000+01:00

Google "joemiddleton" "11-1" and you'll see that this isn't a debate about particular powers. See here, for example.

Now, you said:

"The majority of Scottish MPs as well as Scottish MSPs oppose a Trident replacement situated on the Clyde ... So it doesn't actually matter what our elected members think. They are outnumbered."

There you go again: "our" elected members. You have a default idea of the scope of "our". I don't.

What if I said this...?

"The majority of Strathclyde MPs as well as Scottish MSPs support a Trident replacement situated on the Clyde."

(I don't know if that's true or false. Just for talking's sake.)

What would your reply be? That Strathclyde is a region and not a nation?

See? It's the "we" argument again. To you, Scotland is the only natural political unit, so that's "us". Whereas to me, "us" can mean the people of Scotland, or Britain, or the EU (among others). That's identity politics. That's what this very often boils down to.

But the EU does not have competence over the polic...

2008-10-21T17:00:00.000+01:00

But the EU does not have competence over the policy areas like defence, foreign policy etc which Joe Middleton cited. Westminster does. So I don't see the comparison.

The SNP is not against the EU having competence, with the exception of fishing which we believe should be returned to national control. But the EU has powers only where the member states agree to share power and member states can seek derogations where EU policy would disadvantage them or go against national interests.

You could argue that Scotland has agreed to share powers with Westminster over these matters simply because we are not independent but it's not quite the same thing, the fact that we are not independent is an an outcome of history. And there are no derogations.

To take one example. The majority of Scottish MPs as well as Scottish MSPs oppose a Trident replacement situated on the Clyde, reflecting public opinion. But the Defence Secretary can announce that the UK Government will keep nuclear weapons on the Clyde anyway (though personally I don't believe him). So it doesn't actually matter what our elected members think. They are outnumbered.

You can't really compare that to being required to implement EU directives. The EU would not issue a directive or adopt a policy requiring member states to have nuclear weapons, would it?

It's a question not only of the extent to which you are prepared to share power but what powers you will share. Westminster would not give the EU control of either defence or foreign policy in the UK. That doesn’t mean that they see the rest of the EU as being anti-British. They just think those are powers properly exercised at national level.

So does the SNP.

My previous post was to BSH.

But anyway, le...

2008-10-21T16:37:00.000+01:00

My previous post was to BSH.

But anyway, let’s broaden this out, because it’s currently going nowhere. You may or may not be aware of Joe Middleton, Press Officer of Independence First.

Recently, he wrote:

“Scotland needs an independent voice in the EU and UN because we are outvoted by a factor of 11-1 at Westminster in the crucial areas of defence, foreign affairs, broadcasting etc. That is the basic argument for independence and it remains true in any economic climate.”

He can’t count. It’s 10:1, not 11:1 (more precisely, 587:59). But that isn’t the point.

Note his use of the word “we”. Note the “otherness” which he clearly imagines for non-Scots, whom he says outvote “us”. It’s as if he thinks they represent some kind of anti-Scottish bloc!

Now consider the fact that the UK is similarly “outvoted” by a factor of 9:1 (in fact 707:78) in the European Parliament, and that an independent Scotland (that’s “us”, in case you’d forgotten) would be “outvoted” probably by 771:14 (roughly 55:1).

Does that similarly vex him? If not, why not?

Yep, 10/10 for consensus politics.

2008-10-21T14:59:00.000+01:00

Yep, 10/10 for consensus politics.

Generally, men feel male, Christians feel Christia...

2008-10-21T13:58:00.000+01:00

Generally, men feel male, Christians feel Christian, sick people feel unwell and Scots feel Scottish. Aren't truisms amazing? ;-)

A debate on identity politics in Scotland will be ...

2008-10-21T13:44:00.001+01:00

A debate on identity politics in Scotland will be pretty limited.

I know there is a big debate around multi culturalism and so on down south - and that is probably what is driving Brown's British stuff, rather than trying to undermine the SNP - but I do not think it is much of an issue here.

You are correct to espouse this Scottish Unionist;...

2008-10-21T13:44:00.000+01:00

You are correct to espouse this Scottish Unionist; but it does not deal with the fact that generally, Scottish people feel Scottish (or at least I do!).

Variety is the spice of life, but there is still a strong Scottish national identity.

With regards to the original locations I probably would slightly biased to admit feeling at home in some bars on Bothwell Road as I used to live in Hamilton.

My point, Indy, is to open another strand of this ...

2008-10-21T13:30:00.000+01:00

My point, Indy, is to open another strand of this whole debate: that of identity politics. Much nationalism, after all, is constructed around perceptions of who exactly comprises “us”.

Comments on Scottish Unionist: “Them” and “us”

In the interests of brevity, I'll take your paragr...

SUYou yourself have discredited these '...

SU, this time you have gone too far. The Old Firm ...

But in respect of your request at the end:...

IndyOh my word, where to start?!Ac...

AndrewWho is my “discredited” source: the ...

Yes I agree that we can make our own choices about...

Good evening SUThe point you make is based...

IndyFor the record, when last surveyed, a ...

Then perhaps we are coming to the heart of things ...

DGAgreed. British nationalism is no more a...

"So you are not arguing on principle, you are argu...

Re: "It's just a different them and us."Yo...

Actually, Britain has ceded a certain amoun...

But Britain has not ceded sovereignty over defence...

If as a nation, Britain had ceded sovereignty for ...

Let's turn it around - would you be happy for the ...

Google "joemiddleton" "11-1" and you'll see that t...

But the EU does not have competence over the polic...

My previous post was to BSH.But anyway, le...

Yep, 10/10 for consensus politics.

Generally, men feel male, Christians feel Christia...

A debate on identity politics in Scotland will be ...

You are correct to espouse this Scottish Unionist;...

My point, Indy, is to open another strand of this ...

SU

You yourself have discredited these '...

But in respect of your request at the end:

...

Indy

Oh my word, where to start?!

Ac...

Andrew

Who is my “discredited” source: the ...

Good evening SU

The point you make is based...

Indy

For the record, when last surveyed, a ...

DG

Agreed. British nationalism is no more a...

Re: "It's just a different them and us."

Yo...

My previous post was to BSH.

But anyway, le...