Comments on Scottish Unionist: Suppressed anti-Englishness

Social Democrat: You may have the last word. Obse...

2009-08-13T22:48:34.535+01:00

Social Democrat:

You may have the last word. Observer is right about dancing on pinheads. Thread closed.

Sorry I didn't notice you'd closed the thread. Th...

2009-08-13T22:41:47.858+01:00

Sorry I didn't notice you'd closed the thread.

Thanks. That was an interesting discusion.

Although 1996 was a long time ago and I can only f...

2009-08-13T22:37:55.208+01:00

Although 1996 was a long time ago and I can only find one reference to the event on the internet (the one you have linked) I’m genuinely sure that I can recollect Alex Salmond and other SNP figures roundly condemning the Anglophobic leaflet at the time and rightly so. Certainly no-one in their right mind could accuse Alex Salmond of not having a commendable track record of condemning all forms of prejudice and championing a multi-cultural Scotland.

The SNP IS a progressive, multi-cultural and social democratic party and those ideologies underpin the wider independence movement in Scotland:

http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.com/ResouceMain.asp

There are idiots with odious opinions on all manners of issues on both sides of the constitutional debate. I wouldn’t attempt to generically accuse unionists of suppressed racism due to the numerous racist gaffes from Tory politicians and activists, because of Gordon Brown’s “British jobs for British people”, because many Tories (such as Murdo Fraser) opposed Nelson Mandella therefore tacitly supporting apartheid.

The Scottish Green Party is a pro-independence party.

Scottish Unionist - if the Scottish electorate hav...

2009-08-13T22:15:37.988+01:00

Scottish Unionist - if the Scottish electorate have self determined in the past to be part of the UK, then they can equally well self determine in the future to leave it.

I don't think that will be on the basis of disliking the English. Because they're not stupid. You don't actually cast your vote on the basis of being annoyed by sports coverage or whatever nonsense usually evokes anti-English feeling. You cast your vote on the basis of what you think is going to be best for you and your family and the wider society you live in.

I think Ratzo is right, this is entering the politically equivalent territory of how many unionists or nationalists and all things in between can dance on the end of a pin before falling off.

Anyway goodnight, it has been an interesting discussion.

David: “My point a) clearly uses self determinati...

2009-08-13T21:58:42.406+01:00

David:

“My point a) clearly uses self determination in the context of Scotland participating as a State. It cannot do that.

That’s oxymoronic. Even Alex Salmond has acknowledged that only about a quarter of Scots want to separate from the rest of Britain. We are self-determining to share sovereignty within Britain.

“My points are undoubtedly flawed, nevertheless you failed to pick relevant holes in them.”

You’ll be the judge of that!

“Why should we be forced to accept such compromise...

2009-08-13T21:49:16.936+01:00

“Why should we be forced to accept such compromises when we can decide for ourselves., here in Scotland.”

We’re not being “forced” to accept anything! Only a minority of people in Scotland want independence.

For example, the June 2009 ICM/BBC poll found that 63% of people want the UK government to take “most of the important decisions for Scotland about defence and foreign affairs”.

Re: On topic. You appear to have rejected my comm...

2009-08-13T21:44:58.454+01:00

Re: On topic.

You appear to have rejected my comments on your assertions of 'anti-English'. My post did not break house. Please clarify?

Re: Scottish representation.

My point a) clearly uses self determination in the context of Scotland participating as a State. It cannot do that.

Your additional remarks then lead from your initial and irrelevant deflection. My points are undoubtedly flawed, nevertheless you failed to pick relevant holes in them.

"How often does Scotland have common cause in Europe with anyone other than the rest of the existing UK?" Never - Scotland cannot align with any EU member as it has no representation of its own. Again QED.

“I have a sense of Britishness from the words pri...

2009-08-13T21:44:39.033+01:00

“I have a sense of Britishness from the words printed on my passport, from the BBC every night handing over to BBC Scotland and a commonality of being on the British Isles.”

Thought not. Blimey, how shallow!

Erm, thanks for that, Ratzo. Not a specialist subj...

2009-08-13T21:05:46.276+01:00

Erm, thanks for that, Ratzo. Not a specialist subject of mine, but can I presume you're not an Episcopalian? ;-)

I've rejected a couple of comments now for being off-topic. Yours was borderline. In case there's any doubt, the thread-starter was about anti-Englishness.

David: “A laughable and decidedly amateur comment...

2009-08-13T21:01:27.176+01:00

David:

“A laughable and decidedly amateur comment from you AM2.

Do you think so? Well, let’s see how your comment stacks up...

“a) Scotland and indeed England has no international position at a political level. Any politics at an international level are reserved to Westminster and the British state. ”

That is because Scotland and England self-determine to be part of the United Kingdom and to be jointly represented alongside the other two home nations. Overall, I think that’s a beneficial arrangement. Clearly you disagree. But as Alex Salmond said: “At each and every election we have the ability to vote ourselves into independence.” So if you want to change it, you know what needs to be done!

“b) With self determination Scotland would have its own voice in international politics which is more than none. ”

Scotland has self-determination; see above.

I agree that it would be “more than none”, but it would also be less than at present. Most of the time, Scottish interests coincide with the rest of the United Kingdom. We are part of the same country, after all! So we usually have 72 MEPs batting for us. Ireland, for example, has only 12.

And Britain has a voice very much louder than any small country could ever dream of achieving. As Liam Byrne has said: “Uniquely we are members of the UN Security Council, the OECD, the G8, the EC, NATO, the Commonwealth and the Council of Europe, and we have a track record of leadership on the international stage on issues ranging from peacekeeping to climate change to ending third world debt.”

So being part of the UK amplifies Scotland’s voice.

“c) When the UK actively negotiates with other states against Scotland stated position it is WORSE than no voice eg Nuclear, Fishing, Energy. ”

You make it sound malicious! Is that how you see it?

Now, a majority of Scots actually want to retain our nuclear deterrent. I’ve mentioned fishing above; in that regard I sympathise with the SNP’s position. But compromise is inherent in any political structure, unless you want complete isolationism, which carries its own much more significant problems. On energy, should I presume you’re again alluding to the anti-nuclear stance which the SNP imagines the people of Scotland to share but which surveys indicate isn’t the case.

But anyway, even if the “stated position” wasn’t the same, how would that be different to a situation where a country is overruled in Europe? You can’t have it both ways. Do you want to make all your own decisions or do you want to cooperate with your neighbours? I’ll take the latter.

“d) Although Scotlands international position would be much weaker than the UK is now. A combined Scottish and rump UK voice would be just as strong or stronger (especially in Europe as there would be more seats from Britain overall) than little old UK on its own. ”

The interests of an independent Scotland would inevitably diverge from the so-called “rump UK” (such a charming term). How often does Scotland have common cause in Europe with anyone other than the rest of the existing UK?

“QED.”

Actually, I believe that acronym is normally used to signify that a watertight case has been made.

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem ...

2009-08-13T20:53:08.295+01:00

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

The 'dialogue' on this thread carries has a distant echo of that between Episcopalians and Presbyterians - where Britishness has the status of the Bishops.

I think you mean 30%-40% of those adults who vote,...

2009-08-13T20:23:32.789+01:00

I think you mean 30%-40% of those adults who vote, which is at most 20% of all adults.

But I take your broader point, and of course that's part of the reason why the devolution settlement has been reviewed, and no doubt will continue to be refined periodically. Ditto the soul-searching in the wake of the expenses scandal, etc. There's a great deal of upside.

"Strip British representation out of the picture a...

2009-08-13T20:21:23.384+01:00

"Strip British representation out of the picture and Scotland’s international position is much diminished."

A laughable and decidedly amateur comment from you AM2.

a) Scotland and indeed England has no international position at a political level. Any politics at an international level are reserved to Westminster and the British state.

b) With self determination Scotland would have its own voice in international politics which is more than none.

c) When the UK actively negotiates with other states against Scotland stated position it is WORSE than no voice eg Nuclear, Fishing, Energy.

d) Although Scotlands international position would be much weaker than the UK is now. A combined Scottish and rump UK voice would be just as strong or stronger (especially in Europe as there would be more seats from Britain overall) than little old UK on its own.

QED.

SU This is indeed a popular thread, and I can see...

2009-08-13T20:11:29.653+01:00

SU

This is indeed a popular thread, and I can see the passion is running high on both sides of the argument.

But...

"British Government has served the people of the United Kingdom very well."

No it hasn't. Even if you say it enough times it hasn't. When 30-40% of adults vote for a party whose main aim is Independence, then things are far from "well". Things need to change. And if the UK Government does not take this seriously enough, e.g. Calman, then change will happen from within Scotland.

“More meaningless platitudes that fly in the face ...

2009-08-13T19:21:01.942+01:00

“More meaningless platitudes that fly in the face of your advocacy of a British state.”

They’re meaningless platitudes to you, Wardog. But not me. And anyway, you didn’t answer my question. Would I be right in thinking that you have no sense of Britishness yourself? If you did, you would realise that your talk of empire building, imperialism, supplanting identities and subjugation is so wide of the mark as to be both lamentable and laughable.

“Why do we need Britain AM2, why not dissolve it and have a European federal state or indeed a world state?”

We don’t “need” state lines to be drawn in any particular place. To think otherwise would be nationalistic! And the EU is already very close to being a de facto federation. Distributed sovereignty exists in the here and now. British government has served the people of the United Kingdom very well. Scottish devolution is, to my mind, enabling closer decision making on domestic issues. And European integration, with the possible exception of the Common Fisheries Policy, enables vital co-operation and trade across the broader region. So multi-level government, despite its inevitable tensions, increases accountability. Strip British representation out of the picture and Scotland’s international position is much diminished.

Campbell Martin, Siol nan Giadheal and the Scottis...

2009-08-13T19:15:36.415+01:00

Campbell Martin, Siol nan Giadheal and the Scottish Independence Party would be just as irrelevant in an independent Scotland as they are just now.

I am quite a supporter of the Greens in many ways, but for now I will vote for the SNP. In an independent Scotland I will vote for who has the best policies in my opinion.

That is what I presume most of us will do. But we will have removed a tier of Government which I don't think is necessary. It's how we are governed we are talking about here, the idea that when you vote you get the policies the majority have voted for. Doesn't always work like that in Scotland does it. Unless I imagined 1979 - 1997.

“Needless to say all these examples of Anglophobia...

2009-08-13T18:20:42.748+01:00

“Needless to say all these examples of Anglophobia are utterly disgusting and they have no place in civilised society.”

You’re right to condemn them. What a shame that Alex Salmond repeatedly declined to condemn the SNP youth wing’s Anglophobic leaflet.

“The SNP and the wider independence movement is a progressive, multi-cultural and social democratic movement.”

The SNP professes to be. Can the same be said of individuals like Campbell Martin, groups like Siol nan Giadheal and parties like the Scottish Independence Party?

The Scottish Green Party isn’t a nationalist party. Decentralisation and subsidiarity are their guiding principles. I don’t agree, but it’s a perspective which I can respect.

Needless to say all these examples of Anglophobia ...

2009-08-13T17:57:40.249+01:00

Needless to say all these examples of Anglophobia are utterly disgusting and they have no place in civilised society.

The point I'm making is that the SNP and the wider independence movement is a progressive, multi-cultural and social democratic movement. Obviously there are racist Anglophobic idiots who profess support for independence. However, these people are in a tiny minority and it is not right for you to insinuate that the SNP (and presumably other pro-independence parties such as the Greens and the SSP) is brimming with evil racists hiding behind a veneer of decency. That insinuation is conspiratorial nonsense and it is deeply offensive.

Similarly various racists and bigots who profess Unionist loyalties are completely out of sink with the mainstream of Unionism.

We should focus on tackling prejudice and its root causes. This should be above party politics.

Cheers

Belligerant language. Margaret Thatcher calling h...

2009-08-13T17:50:55.075+01:00

Belligerant language. Margaret Thatcher calling her wets traitors and quislings. Enoch Powell promising us rivers of blood. George Galloway calling Henry Kissinger the greatest war criminal of all time. Trade unionism and the old Labour Party - all based on ''struggle''. I really don't want to be forced to have to google, I really do think people should accept that politicians use such language, it's not confined to the SNP.

Braveheart - you seem to confuse ethnicity with citizenship.

Scottish Unionist introduced the concept of threat by asking me if I expected him to be threatened by what I had to say. Why on earth does he think that?

Braveheart again - I switched to the SNP permanently about a decade ago as their policies, including independence, made a lot more sense to me than any other parties. I would point out here that I didn't leave the Labour Party - they left me. I don't really care what happened in the 1970's etc. Should I?

And I think we have seen rather a lot of selective literalism on this thread, if you don't mind my saying so.

And efrafandays - please do introduce yourself. A moniker I will recognise please. You've obviously studied what has been posted under mine, I presume you didn't suffer in silence?

From the same Spectator article: “Consider one e...

2009-08-13T17:27:13.649+01:00

From the same Spectator article:

“Consider one example of racism in action. In 1993, a group called Scottish Watch, whose treasurer was a college lecturer in Dumfries, appointed an official to co-ordinate a `spring offensive' against English people buying houses in Scotland. They claimed that English buyers put up house prices and dispossessed local people. Their aim was to make people feel like traitors if they sold their houses to people from the south. They intimidated not only English people, but Scottish people who had not seen the English as the enemy for over 300 years - and some of them not even then. Scottish Watch attempted to manipulate routine complaints about house prices into racial war. They may have only had about 120 activists, but they claimed to have members `at all levels of the SNP'.”

Think I'll stop there for now.

And then we have stuff like this... From the Inde...

2009-08-13T17:23:25.798+01:00

And then we have stuff like this...

From the Independent, 26th September 1996:

Labour criticised a Young Scots for Independence leaflet, mainly distributed at recent pop concerts. The leaflet quoted the book and film Trainspotting by Irvine Welsh with the words that the English were "wankers". Labour MP Maria Fyffe said the leaflet was racist and called for its withdrawal.

From the Spectator, 30th May 1998:

“A recent recruitment leaflet for the Scottish Nationalist student wing reads as follows: `Some people hate the English . . . but I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are colonised by wankers. We can't even pick a decent culture to be colonised by. We are ruled by effete arseholes. It's a shite state of affairs and all the fresh air in the world will not make any fucking difference. Choose independence.' The text is taken from the cult novel Trainspotting in order to give it a spurious literary legitimacy, but the message is plain enough: English people and all they stand for are not wanted.”

From Hansard, 6th November 1996:

Mr. Raymond Robertson: Therefore--if the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan is serious about the issues that he raised today, and serious in bringing them to the attention of the House and the Government--he will take this opportunity to disown the obscene and xenophobic filth produced by his party's youth wing. My right hon. Friend Secretary of State has challenged him on two occasions to dissociate himself from the remarks. I now give him a third opportunity, in the House, to dissociate himself from his party's youth wing and from that leaflet.

Mr. Alex Salmond: I will give the Minister the opportunity to tell us what he will do about the 900-year history of feudal obligation in Scotland. What measure will be in the Government's legislative programme, and when will the Minister start addressing the issue instead of delivering his mindless abuse?

Mr. Robertson: It is now on the record, for the third time, that the hon. Gentleman will not dissociate himself from that leaflet, which, as I said, is nothing short of obscene, xenophobic and anti-English filth.

Not to mention the junior cybernats...

2009-08-13T17:19:16.933+01:00

Not to mention the junior cybernats...

I have to say: there’s a lack of common sense on d...

2009-08-13T17:14:57.877+01:00

I have to say: there’s a lack of common sense on display from those who are trying to downplay the anti-Englishness which so often features in Scots nationalism.

So far I’ve kept the cybernats out of this thread, but I think I’ll open my big book of quotes for a minute:

“Independance from English scum NOW!” - brodr

“there are numerous reasons to hate the English and race alone is not one of them...” – Fat Freddys

“I wouldn't pay too much heed to Pete from Paisley. He is obviously English...” – Guga II

“I think that most Europeans would agree that the one and only problem with Europe is the bloody English and their ever faithful servant lackeys here in Scotland.” – Hunky Dorey

“if was not for the English EGO there would be no SNP” – Jock Tamson

“My views are NOT a CCc of the SNP BUT yours are CCc of an Arogant English know it all!!!!” – Eve

“The English are perhaps more foreign to Scotland than any other people on earth!” – An Australian of Scottish Ancestry

“to #8 a personal request come up here and i will personally shjow to you my hatred to you english scum” – robibhoy

“The inglish may start to dislike the Scots, but NOBODY in the rest of the world likes the inglish.” – Maurice

“English hatred? As we are in Scotland and all the barbarism the english have committed over the years we are not to be blamed. The reaction is fully justified and growing.” – Ard Righ

“Scumbag **** off this site you thick engerlish to**er.” – Dirty Harry Callaghan

“The little englanders are revolting!!! But were they ever really anything else?” – ‘Suck’ McCrunchie

“let the English say what they like... these ignorant pigs forget that they are a once big nation now on the fast decline” - the_big_kev

“We don't ignore midges when they try to bite us,why ignore an english when we can use the target practice.There is no doubt Scotland moves toward being Scotland again,an independent country clear of english oppression and it's sick,twisted culture.” – T. MacIntosh

“Who cares what this english f*ckwank thinks?” – Foo

“The base idea of an independent Scotland is a Scotland absent the bloody english.” - T. MacIntosh

“You say I hate the English? Not true, I just like my fellow Scots more - even you.” – I’m no really here

“We wont be short changed any more by the english blood suckers who only want us for our oil!” – The Second Coming

“SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH HIM. HE MUST BE ENGLISH.” – Casey Purvis

“sleekit English MEP’s” – Col Blimp III

“The English are god-dammed liars” – t.c.e.k.

“not many people do like them...and with very good reason.” – wisdom

“vote SNP and get rid of this english filth” – alexander/

“P*** off to England where you belong” – Auckland Arab

“ye wee english to**er … sh** stirring wee tw**” – Greig frae oz

“the english ther knowing as trouble makers any way” – Scotland for Ever

“We want to get fid [sic] of that parasite slug off our ass, it's called England.” – Alan Reid

etc etc

Social Democrat (3:10pm) I admire and share your ...

2009-08-13T17:09:00.732+01:00

Social Democrat (3:10pm)

I admire and share your obviously genuine commitment to eradicating prejudice. But I am not “slurring” anyone by pointing out that a significantly greater proportion of nationalists than unionists are anti-English and that civic nationalism isn’t a stable ideology.

After all, civic nationalism is a much subtler notion than cultural or ethnic nationalism. One might even say that it requires a certain amount of intelligence to sustain.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree over whether or not I am a “British nationalist”. Perhaps we’re not entirely in agreement on the definition of nationalism. To me, what most characterises nationalism is that its adherents see themselves as members of only one nation, which almost axiomatically should then be an independent state. By contrast, unionism is a philosophy in which nations can overlap and people can identify on a cultural and political level in a nuanced way with more than one nation — in my case, both to Scotland and Britain.

Wardog (4:27pm) “Great, so your advocating the di...

2009-08-13T16:58:41.897+01:00

Wardog (4:27pm)

“Great, so your advocating the dissolution of the united kingdom...”

Are you making any effort to understand what is being said here or are you just out to debase the thread with sloganising?

No, I’m not advocating any more shifting of borders. Haven’t we had enough of that in recent years? It rarely comes to much good.

The United Kingdom is a multinational union. But the constituent nations haven’t been absorbed or subsumed into a single homogeneous entity. So Britain is a nation of nations, in which Scotland can still be fully Scotland. We aren’t culturally or politically oppressed. I simply admire the ‘anti-nationalist’ nature of the union structure, which, to me, embodies openness and generosity.