The 1320 Declaration of Arbroath defined Scottish independence as the absence of “English rule”. Olive Checkland wrote of 19th Century Scotland that “inevitably Scottish nationalism assumed an anti-English aspect,” explaining one important aspect of nationalism as “an assertion of difference from a dominant people”. George Orwell observed in 1945 that Celtic nationalisms “are alike in their anti-English orientation”. And more recently, Dietmar Böhnke wrote of Scots nationalism being strengthened by “the image of the Scottish nation fighting as one man against bad odds and opposing an external enemy, which are the English ‘colonisers’, the ‘Auld Enemy’”.
It is from the perception of the English as “a dominant people” that anti-Englishness arises. There is no anti-Welsh or anti-Ulster element within Scots nationalism. Only the English, for reasons of population, culture and/or attitude, are thought of as colonisers or an ‘enemy’.
But is anti-Englishness now largely a historical artefact? Has modern nationalism outgrown the “England expects...” rhetoric of the 1970s, which in attributing viciously anti-Scottish and exploitative motives to the English ‘other’ betrayed its own underlying prejudices and motives?
Yes and no. It is the case that, in Alex Salmond’s words, the SNP took a “conscious decision” to “project” independence in an “inclusive way”. A notable milestone in that regard was his plea in a 1998 conference speech for party members no longer to “blame the English”. Another significant moment was Winnie Ewing’s attempt, at the 2003 Bannockburn rally, to effect a paradigm shift. Actually, she told the party faithful, “the enemies of Scotland are not the English”. In the new, civic SNP the unionist parties were to be the “traitors” and the target for nationalistic enmity.
Yet even amongst senior nationalists, the attempts to purge the public anti-Englishness which has sullied the SNP’s reputation haven’t always been effective. Former SNP leader Gordon Wilson claimed in 2003 that Britain is a “state run by England for the benefit of England,” and SNP veteran Ian Hamilton declared only last year that “Scotland has suffered under English government”.
So anti-Englishness is very much alive and kicking. Prof Miller’s and Dr Hussain’s 2006 study found that some 46 percent of nationalists have a “negative” view of English people. Nationalism, they confirmed, makes people “more Anglophobic” — at “street level” if not among the SNP leadership.
It’s a serious issue. Anti-English violence is thankfully rare, but for every loose-lipped councillor who accidentally tells a newspaper reporter that he thinks the English are “bloody arrogant”, there must be numerous others who would never dream of damaging the party by speaking their minds.
Sometimes the civic mantra is so firmly rooted that one has to read carefully between the lines to discern the underlying attitude. Take, for example, Alex Salmond’s reaction to the earth-shattering news that haggis may first have been eaten in England and only later popularised by Scots.
“I don’t mind the English claiming haggis as their own, as long as they leave us our country. But haggis is our institution and we will defend it to the last. This haggis grab is akin to a land grab and it’s a sign of its culinary success now as a swanky dish.” [my bold]Why would Salmond associate a rather trivial piece of culinary history with a “land grab” and an unwarranted political threat by “the English” on “our country”? Would he have reacted so peculiarly had haggis happened to have originated in Wales or Ireland? The answer is obvious.
Such divisive comments also risk intensifying anti-English sentiment. Not that he’ll lose any sleep over that; in 2006 Alex Salmond actually expressed approval of cross-border resentment.
“In England, people quite rightly resent Scottish Labour MPs bossing them about on English domestic legislation.” [my bold]Imagine the outcry if that had been the other way around: an approval of Scottish resentment of English “bossing”. But Salmond is smart; he would never damage the party by speaking his mind!
Hat-tip: O’Neill.



Your diatribe doesn't define what Englishness is AM2..
Does 'englishness' exist?
“In Scotland, people quite rightly resent English Tory MPs bossing them about on Scottish domestic legislation.”
Wardog 2012
My diatribe (as you call it) doesn’t seek to define Englishness. That isn’t its purpose.
But it is clear that many senior nationalists imagine Englishness to embody anti-Scottishness.
Here are some snippets to exemplify that. Read between the lines...
• Alex Salmond: “just about every English Tory MP has a raft of anti-Scottish prejudices”
• Fiona Hyslop: “the anti-Scottish behaviour of Labour and Tory MPs”
• Nicola Sturgeon: “The anti-Scottish Tories remain a nasty party”
• Stewart Hosie: “anti-Scottish voices south of the border”
• Alex Salmond: “London Labour's increasingly hysterical anti-Scottish attacks”
• Pete Wishart: “anti-Scottish alliance of Labour, Tory and Lib Dem MPs”
This is new variant anti-Englishness. Not ‘we hate the English’ but subtly promoting the completely baseless notion that the English have something against us.
FFS. I don't think Alex is half as funny as Alex thinks he is, but clearly he is joking. What is it with unionist bloggers?
PS - you forgot to add the bit about Kenny calling the England squad The Great Satan. Proof that we think the English have tails and horns, surely?
Actually I dislike the Irish more, but certainly rate the French above the English. Find the Italians a bit monotonous with their highly impassioned antics, and somewhat controversially have came to really admire the Germans, but wish they'd get over their guilt about WWII and think the Dutch with the number of Nazi's they harbour have little right to be so smug.
None of that has anything to do with why I would be comfortable with Scotland as an independent Nation... I think!
"Read between the lines..."
No thanks, I prefer face value.
Maybe you should try it sometime, your blogs are becoming ever more reliant on insinuation.
"they are doing it on purpose"
I've said it before and I'll say it again, it is wholy within the SNP's remit to call upon policies which solely benefit Scotland, that's what the SNP is for, the betterment of Scotland.
That UK Parties should seek to mitigate that benefit by spreading it over the whole UK is for them to decide, if they do so to the deficit of Scotland then the SNP surely has every right to decry them.
Scottish Labour, Tories and Liberals had better get their story straight before Barnet starts to get tinkered with post 2010.
The only way for 'self proclaimed unionists' to alleviate cross border tensions is for fiscal autonomy to the nations within a federal system.
That is the most transparent system within the union.
It is ideology that prevents that common sense approach occurring. An ideology that seeks to protect the inequities of the union for party political ends.
An ideology espoused by the main UK Parties.
An ideology that obstructed Calman in his deliberations.
That ideology is 'unionism'
It might be argued that it's 'unionism' itself that is causing disgruntlement between many English voters who are receiving lower government resources than those in Scotland.
Why can't unionism just be honest and drop the ideology that to anyone outside the movement appears laden with jingoistic imperialism and simply forge a new democratic constitution that is transparent and fair?
Is unionism with it's latent 'c' conservatism standing in the way of progress toward a fairer society?
Here we go again. More slurs on decent members and supporters of the SNP.
I am in the SNP. I support independence. I absolutely DESPISE anti-English sentiment along with all other types of prejudice and will do everything I can to oppose it. I urge every other decent person to do the same.
I have been active in the SNP for over 5 years. I have never heard anti-English sentiment expressed from anyone in the party at any level. Whilst campaigning I have never heard anti-English sentiment expressed from any of our supporters. Quite the contrary in fact.
But let’s just pretend for a second that your fantastical, defamatory slanders against the motives of the largest party in Scotland are true. In such a scenario one would have to marvel at the incompetency of the SNP’s prejudice. To have managed to attract thousands of supporters of English origin. To have prominent English politicians and activists. I tell you what, Salmond and company are clearly pretty rubbish at this whole prejudice thing. How on earth did they manage to attract so many English supporters and members if your allegations are true?
By way of contrast I’m sure you’ll get round to investigating the foibles of some unionists as, for example, demonstrated by the Conservative and Unionist Party’s very real problems with racism:
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2356779.0.tory_candidate_calls_racist_rhodesian_leader_a_hero.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6434053.stm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20050612/ai_n14680004/
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/conservativeparty/Cameron-faces-racist-ally-claim.5506631.jp
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6121646.stm
What are we to make of these examples I wonder? Apparently if we were to use your rational we should make sweeping allegations about the motives of Conservatism and unionism more generally. However, it doesn’t feel right to tar every decent unionist with the same brush. It just wouldn’t be fair would it?
You are obviously an incredibly intelligent person but it seems to me that you use this blog to justify your own British nationalism with obsessive, conspiratorial fantasies about the apparently evil Scottish nationalist bogey man. It is not rational, it is dishonourable and it is offensive to the many decent citizens who vote SNP.
Of course, Indy. It’s all a big joke.
“Pakis coming over here and taking all our jobs” – Ha! Only joking! No harm done.
“the English ... leave us our country ... defend it to the last ... land grab” – Ha! Only joking! No harm done.
Even if Salmond’s silly ‘defend it to the last’ comment had a tongue-in-cheek element, his use of ‘we’/‘they’ and the colonial/territorial way in which he framed the issue runs to the heart of his broader attitude.
Cracking post Social Democrat
Hats off
Muttley
"The only way for 'self proclaimed unionists' to alleviate cross border tensions is for fiscal autonomy to the nations within a federal system."
If that's the "only" way, then how come it's NOT the way the Spanish, Germans, Australians, Canadians etc etc do it?
"It is ideology that prevents that common sense approach occurring. An ideology that seeks to protect the inequities of the union for party political ends."
So you're accusing the Spanish, Germans, Australians, Canadians etc etc of this imaginary "ideology" too?
Curious.
Social Democrat:
Your superficially reasonable attempt to deflect the issue onto racial attitudes displayed by non-nationalists would have some relevance if any thematic connection between unionism and racism had ever been established. Can you cite any academic articles or studies which do so?
Now, you say you “have never heard anti-English sentiment expressed from anyone in the party at any level”. But I quoted several instances in my post. Why ignore them to make a point about your own claimed experience?
You also accuse me of “British nationalism”. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of unionism. There is no contradiction in being pro-Scotland, pro-Britain and pro-Europe. You may not be at ease with distributed sovereignty, but I am. So the consideration of what powers might best be exercised at Scottish, British or European levels involves a lot more than uncritical subsidiarity, or what’s thought to be best only for ‘us’ (however defined). The unionist ideal is to pool resources, to come together whenever, on balance, it serves our common good. It’s about cementing relations and maximising the common good. And if at times that cuts across narrow nationalistic ideas of ‘our’ versus ‘their’ interests, then so be it. There’s a bigger picture.
Your claim that highlighting the anti-Englishness which even an important academic study found to be deeply rooted within Scots nationalism is somehow “offensive to the many decent citizens who vote SNP” makes no sense. Was it “offensive” of Prof Miller and Dr Hussain to even conduct the research? Was it “offensive” for the Nuffield Foundation to fund it? Should Oxford University Press have declined to publish it?
Jim
Re: “Actually I dislike the Irish more, but certainly rate the French above the English.”
Actually, I tend not to rank people by nationality.
Or were you also “joking”?
I suppose I should claim that I was joking just in case someone tries to pull me up on it ;-)
Let's just say that the comedy stereotypes of certain nations have some basis in truth and my post really relates to the stereotypes as portrayed when we're all having a laugh and just had a few beers, rather than later on when we've had something stronger and the less secure amongst us start to get a bit tetchy ;-) Howzat?
Re: “the comedy stereotypes of certain nations have some basis in truth...”
Sharp intake of breath. Obviously just me being ‘tetchy’.
Ach, come one now. You could catch me out with as simple a question as which particular English stereotype I dislike most...
The genial Geordie, the Scabby Scouser, the smooth talking city trader, the east-end barrow-boy, the surly Yorkshire man (or his equally surly Lankastrian neighbour that I can't differentiate him from), the yokel from the South-West...
It's all meant slightly tongue in cheek, but you do seem a wee bit touchy about it... I was just trying to make the point that whether or not anti-Englishness exists in the SNP or elsewhere for that matter, it makes little difference to the case for independence in my view. I'm comfortable with Independence and it's not due to any perceived like or dislike of other nationalities.
(For the record though, I think you've skewered Social Democrat on the point about whether it exists in the SNP or not - I know for sure that it did exist, and I doubt that those people who suffer from that particular delusion have moved on much, whether his 'Eckness wishes it or otherwise)
Question for the nationalists:
Stewart Maxwell has referred to “the struggle for independence” and Alex Salmond has used the phrase “our fight for independence”. John Swinney has referred to independence as “national freedom” and Ian Hudghton has spoken of the need to “reassert our right to independence”. Campbell Martin has even called it a “fight for national liberation”. Such belligerent and even militaristic rhetoric seems to arise from and communicate a sense of being oppressed. By whom? Which perceived enemy?
As you will be aware there is plenty of academic evidence linking Scottish unionism with racism particularly of the anti-Irish variety.
http://pdfserve.informaworld.com/13647_731193501_713722648.pdf
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/eire-ireland/v039/39.1bradley.pdf
However, you won’t find me using such evidence to slur the vast majority of decent unionists.
As I said, anti-Englishness must be strongly condemned and eradicated along with all forms of prejudice. I have never encountered prejudice in the SNP which is patently a genuine multi-cultural, left-of-centre and internationalist party. I should have made it clear that I utterly condemn and despair at the comments attributed to the SNP council candidate (comments that put him in breach of the party’s code of conduct). However, you do the fight against prejudice a disservice by desperately and tenuously trying to attribute anti-English sentiment to other comments and politicians where clearly none exists.
The point is SU, as a genuine internationalist and global citizen who happens to believe in Scottish independence I am genuinely deeply offended when you accuse me of being something I despise.
I have no idea where you get the idea that I am not at ease with distributed sovereignty. I believe strongly believe in formal egalitarian modern political ties between all the nations of these islands such as pioneered by the Nordic Council in Scandinavia, I am a European Unionist and ultimately a Global Unionist. I have Scottish, British, European and Global identities. I happen to believe that Scotland’s government should have the powers to manage our economy and to help tackle social injustice at home and abroad. I happen to believe that Scotland should be entitled to play a direct role in the international community. There is no “them” and “us” in this vision for Scotland any more than there is a “them” and “us” in your vision for Scotland. Pooling resources and coming together should be carried out on global scales and should be immune to political boundaries whether Scottish or British. If I am defined as a Scottish nationalist because I want to see fiscal and economic policy, foreign policy, immigration policy, broadcasting etc transferred to Holrood then surely it is fair to define you as a British nationalist if you want to oppose such transfer in order to maintain the contemporary perceived concept of British nationality? Don’t worry, it is 100% clear that you are a nationalist of the civic variety.
You are completely correct to highlight that there is a bigger, much more important picture that cuts across narrow nationalistic views. I am, along with the vast majority of folk in my party, a social democrat and internationalist. I have no idea what you are beyond being a so-called “unionist”.
Personally, I think we're our own worst enemy!
It is interesting that you compare a jovial remark about the national identity of haggis (the very concept is ludicrous) with remarks about “Pakis coming over here and taking all our jobs”
Please remind us who made quite serious remarks about being swamped by an alien culture?
Who talked about creating British jobs for British workers?
I don't expect you to answer that, as it might shine a rather unpleasant light on some of your political heroes.
I have to point out however that it was particularly unwise of you to try and associate the SNP with racism directed at the Pakistani community on the same day that the papers are covering the national embarrassment that is the British Home Office refusing visas to a delegation of business people from Lahore invited by Glasgow City Council and to the Patiala Pipe Band who were due to compete at the National Pipe Band Championships at the weekend.
As Clay Davis would say, sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet, I thought Wardog was banned.
>> FFS. I don't think Alex is half as funny as Alex thinks he is, but clearly he is joking. What is it with unionist bloggers?
>> PS - you forgot to add the bit about Kenny calling the England squad The Great Satan. Proof that we think the English have tails and horns, surely?
No, it's proof that you have low personal morality and think principled politics is all about throwing casual sneers and insults about.
As I said to you over at O'Neill's, what makes it easy to dislike you and Salmond, both personally and politically, are your complete lacunae of any sense of responsibility and willingness to admit to your mistakes or errors of judgement.
>> Ach, come one now. You could catch me out with as simple a question as which particular English stereotype I dislike most...
Yeah, but you're not the First Minister. If any political figure came out with such comments, or called gays a bunch of sad loosers, they'd be required to answer for it.
See how it works?
Social Republican, perhaps you should address your hurt feelings at the goons in your party who're giving us this ammnuition; and not swinging into an immediately defensive mode, as did Kenny Gibson.
For every Joe Fitzpatrick there, alas, appears to be half a dozen of abstainers like yourself, or direct causes of the rottenness at the core of sub state nationalism.
You have not heard anti-English remarks? Are you deaf or think us very stupid?
Belligerent and militaristic rhetoric is common amongst politicians in all parties.
There may well be some people for whom anti-Englishness forms a part of their reason for supporting independence. Just as there may well be some people for whom class hatred forms part of their reason for supporting Labour, or perhaps racism and distrust of other cultures nudges some people towards the Tories. These are personal traits, I don't think that they say anything about the respective Parties I have listed.
I think your comment above about ''Pakis coming over here and taking all our jobs'', or other oft heard (and oft posted ) comments disparaging asylum seekers etc show us where the most dangerous form of racism in Scotland lies.
In relation to the SNP, self determination does not rely upon being oppressed by another nation. We are not oppressed and in my view never have been.
SU
Tell me you were waiting for this one, or don't get me started, or this old chestnut, or something like that. Yeah, yeah.
'Independent' newspaper June 2006
When asked last month whether he would be supporting England, Mr McConnell said: "No, I will not. Scotland is not there and that's disappointing. And there are people who think that, as First Minister, I should automatically support England instead. But football is not about politics, so I will not be."
That's Jack McConnell, a senior Unionist.
You see SU, I think you're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. It's called rivalry, and it's particularly prevalent in neighbouring nations. How many times have English politicians rubbished France, Germany or Australia? Do you think everything is sweetness and light between Canada and the US? What about Austria and Germany, Norway and Sweden, Greece and Turkey, India and Pakistan, Armenia and Azerbaijan? Need I go on?
SU
Your 11:58AM post is strange.
To quote leading individuals from a political party whose main aim is independence, expressing a desire for 'independence' is somewhat obvious. Do any of the quotations suggest using military force, or even independence 'from England' (your main plank?) This is below your usual standard SU.
Questions for the unionists:
Why?
AM2 seems to be suggesting that over 350,000 Scots voted for a party that is intrinsically 'anti-english' and that uses 'belligerent' language to antagonise people of English decent.
I mean really, how loopy can you get.?
I'm Scottish and have voted SNP ever since I could vote. I also have never come across any of the anti-English bile you talk of. I have many English friends and have worked in England quite happily. It's British Nationalism that worries me more and I despise the West Coast Labour mafia far more than the English. If "Nationalism" needs an enemy it's obvious that Scotland is treated as the enemy by the British Nationalists. As for the line that there are "extremists" in the SNP whether Alex likes it or not, well do the main parties not have "extremists" too?
Social Democrat (12:46pm)
Your first link doesn’t work for me. Your second is about the Orange Order, a fringe group whose combined religio-political focus leaves me (and most people) completely cold.
I appreciate your stark condemnation of anti-Englishness, but am unsure as to why you feel compelled to issue it. Rather than highlighting Hussain and Miller’s 46% statistic, would it make you feel more comfortable if I said that 54% of nationalists exhibited no discernible signs of being motivated by anti-Englishness? Clearly you’re in that group.
Your “formal egalitarian modern political ties” paragraph is intellectually coherent and worthy of discussion in another thread about the nature of nationalism vis-a-vis separation and/or interdependence. I’ll add it to the To Do list.
Indy (1:29pm)
The point of my rather facetious “Pakis” comparison was that using incendiary language and then claiming it to be some kind of joke is simply unacceptable. If you can’t see as inappropriate Salmond’s allusion to an English “land grab” against “our country” to which we have to “defend” ourselves, then there’s not a lot else I can say.
And are you suggesting that British immigration policy is “racist” but that, by the same criteria, an independent Scotland’s wouldn’t be? What makes you think that? Given that an independent Scotland would, I presume, be a democracy, do you imagine that Scots are less prone to racism than other Britons? If so, have you any empirical evidence for that?
Observer (2:12pm)
Go to Google. Search for SNP “F*** England” or similar. There’s no “may” about it. This is a serious problem.
The very term “self-determination” is intrinsically divisive in certain contexts. Who is “self”? And equally significantly, who isn’t?
Andrew (4:34pm and 5:55pm)
To my mind, Jack McConnell should have sidestepped that issue. I’ve said before that I think his remarks were ill-advised. But at least he was only discussing sport! Anyway, what’s your actual point? Are you trying to compare McConnell not supporting the English football team with the political anti-Englishness on display above?
My 11:58am post was an attempt to dig into the “nationalism needs an enemy” idea. Words like “struggle”, “fight”, “freedom”, “right” and “liberation” are combative. Struggle/fight against whom? Freedom/liberation from what? What rights are being oppressed? And who is the oppressor?
To some extent, I accept your comment about rivalry. But where does that leave the oft-repeated claim that independence would result in a fresh start and the demise of “Auld Enemy” thinking?
Wardog (6:13pm)
I haven’t said that the SNP is “intrinsically” anti-English; that’s just you trying to set up a straw man to beat down. And it isn’t like you to understate your case; over 650,000 people actually voted SNP in May 2007. I have no idea how many of them are also separatists, but the best information we have is that around 46% of those are, in some sense, anti-English. Is that so hard to accept?
Boorach (6:23pm)
Oh dear... that tired old “unionism is the same as British nationalism” misapprehension again, solid rebuttals of which are here and here.
Now, your use of word “despise” leaps out at me. This is a politics blog. Ideas compete here. Why “despise” people whose thinking doesn’t align with your own? Why imagine that people who don’t agree with you about independence see Scotland as an “enemy”? Can’t you understand that there is a legitimate body of opinion that actually Scotland’s interests are best served within the United Kingdom? Is that view – however misguided you may consider it to be – intrinsically “anti-Scottish”?
Scottish Unionist I don't deny for a minute that there are some extremist characters out there, who think that the Scots are a separate race, who think that the English are vile oppressors, and that everyone who doesn't support independence is a quisling or a traitor.
They're nutjobs.
Let me be perfectly frank. I would not have voted for the SNP in the Winnie Ewing type era, first of all because I was too young, and secondly because I have never understood why Scotland should be independent just because it should be.
But-for whatever reason - and this would make an interesting debate, there has been a political divergence North and South of the border (you could make it more complicated than that, by looking at the divergence between different parts of England and different parts of Scotland, but for the sake of my point I want to keep it simple).
It really does appear that when we look at the English (being people who live in England) and the Scots (being people who live in Scotland) en masse, both groups appear to want different things.
I think that is the driver for independence. It's a pragmatic response to a situation where Scots in my opinion do NOT want to go back to the days where we have a Tory Govt ultimately in charge of Scotland, when the majority of Scots won't have voted for them.
And also, let's face it, devolution has sharpened people's views of themselves as Scots. That is not anti-English, it's pro-Scottish.
Observer:
You said: “I don't deny for a minute that there are some extremist characters out there, who think that the Scots are a separate race, who think that the English are vile oppressors, and that everyone who doesn't support independence is a quisling or a traitor. They're nutjobs.”
Unfortunately, the people whom you think of as “extremist characters” and “nutjobs” aren’t always on the fringes. Picking up a few of your themes:
“The enemies of Scotland are the traitors within the gate, the unionist parties...”
– Winnie Ewing, ex-President of the SNP, 2003
The “Scottish Quisling Labour Party” “sided with England rather than Scotland” over oil.
– Gordon Wilson, ex-Leader of the SNP, 2005
“Scotland is a singular nation. We support, and even elect, representatives who see our own country as subordinate to another one.”
– Andrew Sharp, SNP Westminster candidate for East Lothian, 2007
“The SNP is a revolutionary party. Its aim is the break up of the United Kingdom. This is something that England can’t afford, doesn’t want and will do everything to stop.”
– Ian Hamilton, SNP European and Holyrood candidate, 2009
Ironically perhaps, Kenny MacAskill is one politician who appears to acknowledge part of the SNP’s problem. In 2003 he wrote the following about Bannockburn:
“We must advance — both as a party and as a nation — and stop defining ourselves in terms of a victory over the English.”
Observer:
You said: “It really does appear that when we look at the English (being people who live in England) and the Scots (being people who live in Scotland) en masse, both groups appear to want different things.”
I’ve never seen any value in that argument.
Texas is Republican and California is Democrat; so what?
London is Labour, East Anglia is Tory and Cornwall is Lib Dem. So should England fragment?
Why is there more significance in the average across sub-state nations than across different cities or regions?
I have answered your points already SU. People like Winnie Ewing and Gordon Wilson are from another era, that quite frankly I am not that familiar with. I remember Gordon Wilson as being the leader of the SNP but I was solid Labour then. As was virtually everyone else I knew, and we have all switched.
What you can't factor into politics is ''events, dear boy''. It is events that will deliver independence - most notably the ''event'' of Margaret Hilda Thatcher.
I just hope she lives long enough to see it:-)
But in quoting Kenny Macaskill you have hit the nail on the head - the SNP cannot define themselves in terms of victory over the English - because people like me wouldn't vote for them if they did.
We are not voting in the SNP when we vote for independence, we are voting for the opportunity to elect who we want.
Ironically I think there will be a new Scottish Labour Party born out of the maelstrom. And they might do quite well.
SU I've lived in both countries. The English define themselves as English, and the Scots are increasingly defining themselves as Scots. We could have a vast ranging philisophical argument as to why that is wrong - I could do a very good impression of Paul Hutcheon if you like, being a former leftie, but facts are chiels that winna ding. Given the opportunity, we are now voting and implementing different policies - even under Labour - and I see no evidence that pattern will change. I think with the advent of a Tory Govt it will accelerate.
SU
McConnell, as First Minister, according to Fleet Street, did indeed make an anti-English comment. And yes, it was about sport. Fast forward to another First Minister making a 'perceived' anti-English comment about Haggis. The only difference was that they were from different political parties, one of which you attack daily. Now that's all well and good, but the one which did the real damage with our fellow English citizens, was McConnell's.
The belligerant and combative language you have highlighted is indeed just that. But SU, they're all at it ...
http://www.labour.org.uk/winning_the_fight_for_britains_future_-_gordon_brown
And "Join the Fight for Scotland's future" seems to be a scottishlabour.org mission statement.
In terms of the rivalry thing, yes you're right, it would definitely continue in an Independent Scotland, but to a lesser degree, and certainly not in political circles where Scotland would have to stand on it's own two feet.
Observer:
You said: “We are not voting in the SNP when we vote for independence, we are voting for the opportunity to elect who we want.” [my bold]
There’s nationalism in a nutshell. To you, “we” means Scotland by default. Your monochromatic national identity automatically defines the scope of your “we” and “us”. Scots become “us” and everyone else “them”.
But my “we” is so much more nuanced. It can signify Scotland, Britain or Europe, depending on the electoral context. And that it has various meanings gives it a much less exclusive connotation. The inclusive and generous sub- and supra-state nature of unionism is, to my mind, its unique appeal. We share Scotland with the rest of Britain, and they reciprocate.
Re: “The English define themselves as English, and the Scots are increasingly defining themselves as Scots.”
That’s debatable, but you say it as if you expect me to see it as some kind of threat.
When last surveyed, 74% of Scots also said that they felt “closely attached” to the UK as a whole. 70% said that they feel a sense of “belonging” to Britain. And 65% described themselves as “proud” of their British identify.
What you would appear to be seeking to do is to set Scottishness and Britishness in opposition one to another, as if they’re incompatible. They aren’t, and no amount of tub-thumping will alter most people’s perception of themselves.
I despise them not because they disagree with my politics but because of their self-serving exploitation of the very people they purport to serve, their cronyism and nepotism. They have no interest in politics or Scotland - Their only interest is their own enrichment.
Scottish Unionist can I say gently that you seem to be a tad paranoid at times? Why do you find independence a threat? What do you think is going to happen? I can only see power being devolved to the lowest level possible, whilst still being part of the EU.
Scottish and Britishness is becoming incompatible. Not because the English are demons, but because of the political divergance that I spoke about earlier, which I think is evident for all to see.
I can assure you, you will go a long way to meet someone less monochramatic than me. There is no singular lightwave in my world. But I do believe in subsidiarity as a guiding principle and it doesn't frighten me.
Hi SU
I have no doubt that you have no trunk with the Orange Order. The point of the link is to highlight that the bigoted, sectarian and avowedly unionist Orange Order has encouraged and thrived off an odious and destructive anti-Irish racism. Numerous studies on 19th and 20th century Scottish society have acknowledged this.
As I have already said in 5 years of activism in the SNP I have never encountered anti-English prejudice from any SNP supporters or members despite having met many members from across the country and canvassed from Glasgow to Inverness. Consequently, I can’t recognise the quoted statistic from Hussain & Miller (2006). It just doesn’t match with reality as I have encountered it. As a result I thought it only right to investigate Hussain and Miller’s 2006 work on Multicultural Nationalism in more detail. Firstly, it is necessary to see what results the same methodology would produce when applied to Labour, Tory and Lib Dem supporters before one can justifiably suggest that the alarming statistics quoted are unique to SNP supporters or whether they are demonstrative of wider Scottish society. Accordingly we should consider the full data set on Anglophobic, Islamophobic, asylophobic and sectarian tendencies based on political partisanship presented on page 79 of Hussain & Miller:
Anglophobia: CON = 33%; LAB = 38%; LD = 27%; SNP = 43%; DNV = 40%
Islamophobia: CON = 55%; LAB = 48%; LD = 35%; SNP = 48%; DNV = 51%
Asylophobia: CON = 84%; LAB = 68%; LD = 66%; SNP = 79%; DNV = 66%
Sectarianism: CON = 15%; LAB = 5%; LD = 2%; SNP = 3%; DNV = 7%.
What are we to make of these results? Well apparently the SNP has the highest proportion of surveyed supporters displaying Anglophobic tendencies (43%) although this is only 5% more than unionist Labour Party supporters (38%). Indeed Anglophobia is seen to be high amongst supporters of all the major political parties. When we consider the results on Islamophobia we also see a trend in which Islamophobia amongst both Tory and Labour supporters (55% and 48% respectively) is greater than Anglophobia amongst questioned SNP supporters. Indeed SNP supporters were apparently more Islamophobic (48%) than Anglophobic. We see that supporters of all the parties have alarmingly high levels of mistrust to asylum seekers and we also see that sectarianism is low amongst Labour, SNP and Lib Dem supporters but higher amongst questioned Tory voters.
So, if taken at face value, the data suggests that there is a problem with Anglophobia across the Unionist – Nationalist political divide, that there is an even greater prevalence of Islamophobic prejudice amongst supporters of all political parties, and that there is a terrifyingly high incidence of asylophobia amongst all Scots. Therefore, it is somewhat disingenuous to select data from the survey relating to only SNP supporters in isolation in order to try and paint Scottish nationalists as uniquely Anglophobic when the data clearly shows that Anglophobia along with other forms of prejudice is a problem affecting all Scotland regardless of political loyalties.
I think it is fair to say that most of us living in Scotland would argue that the figures quoted in Hussain & Miller (2006) seem artificially high. Therefore, I would contend that (hopefully) a problem in the survey methodology or the quantification/definition of phobias has produced unrealistically high percentages in the study. Nevertheless, this study underlines the fact that we have a very real problem with prejudice in our society. I’m sure we can agree that we must all work hard to eradicate it.
By the way, it has never been about “separatism” but rather national equality and full involvement in an interdependent world.
"Your monochromatic national identity "
What is scottishness AM2?
It is you my friend that has the monochromatic identity that seeks to quell and supplant other identities by giving pre-eminence, to 'britishness'
It is you that seeks to set scottishness against being European, despite both being intertwined for millennia before the advent of the 'britishness' construct had even entered James VI's mind and subsequently a gaggle of landed gentry selling their souls for personal profit
'Britishness' has never been given a democratic mandate by anyone. It is the last vestiges of an empire built upon economic subservience, a subservience that continues today. and which you seek to maintain, refusing transparent democratic fiscal autonomy / federalism.
Your whole political monologue is based on conflating identity with nation and state.
It is unionism that seeks to conserve the sub-nation status of Scotland, it is the ideology of unionism that seeks to paint everyone with one brush under 'britishness' and as yet, undefined idea but with distinct connotations of empire and anti-European sentiments.
Despite your protestations, 'britishness' to many does not equate to multicultural equity, indeed quite the reverse.
'Britishness' speaks of elitism and the subjugation of identities, inequities in resources and a continued poverty of vision hell bent on retaining control in the face of global change.
The world is moving AM2
Your outdated imperial visions of Britannia are being left behind and real social democratic government , close to the people and open to the people is replacing it.
"Yeah, but you're not the First Minister. If any political figure came out with such comments, or called gays a bunch of sad loosers, they'd be required to answer for it.
See how it works?"
Yep, I see how it works, lift some quote out of context, then pat yourself on the back for being so clever. Some might call it cheap, others will join in, adding the weight of their faux indignation at what's apparently been said by 'someone who should know better' and we're off selling more tabloid newspapers than you can shake a stick at.
There's no difference between the Scots and the English.
As for nationalism, it's just an adolescent regression. It means nothing beyond a type of suppressed rage and self loathing.
For example. I'm Scottish, my parents were born in Scotland but my grandparents were Scots and Irish. My wife is Scottish. Her parents were born in Scotland and her grandparents were Italian.
My children are therefore Scots/Italian/Irish (and that's the bits we know about).
My brother lives in England, as do various aunts and uncles. So I have English neices and nephews and cousins and second cousins and etc.
My aunt emigrated to the USA in 1960. So I have cousins and great neices and nephews in the States.
And of course there's the Irish branch of the family, my grandfathers relatives who now live in Northern Ireland and the Republic. Goodness knows how many of them there are....
My wife's brother lives in Rome, is married to an American woman. His kids have US citizenship. Her sister also lives in Rome and is married to an Italian, so their kids are Scots/Italian.
Her other brother lives in Oregon and is married to an American woman. His kids are also US citizens.
My sister married a Swede and took up Swedish nationality. So there is the Scandinavian wing to consider....
And you know what? If you did a genetic test you would find that there are absolutely no genetic differences between and among all these people. We are all human. We all have exactly the same genetic makeup. European, Asian, African, Scots, English, Irish, Welsh, Columbian, Polynesian... No Difference.
So you see, Boorach, hatred of them is really hatred of yourself. Freud would have a field day.
And we all need the same things: food, shelter, security and care for ourselves and our families.
There's an old Scottish saying which sums it up quite nicely:
We're all Jock Tamson's bairns.
Real socialists recognise that means that people of all nationalities and none have common cause in improving the lot of all of us. Tories and nationalists want to split us into artificially created groups "us" and "them", the better to create argument and friction and to easier control the impulse for progress.
As I have said on many an occassion: nationalism is a right wing ideology, and this anti-Englishness is just one of its many unplesant outcroppings.
Observer (11:43pm)
“Scottish Unionist can I say gently that you seem to be a tad paranoid at times?”
You may say it, but that doesn’t make it true.
“Why do you find independence a threat?”
I don’t.
“Scottish and Britishness is becoming incompatible.”
That’s the message you want to push. Doesn’t make it true.
Hehe, the word verification for this post was almost STFU.
Although I'm speaking for myself, I suspect SU agrees, Independence per se is not a threat (although I'd be disappointed if it occurred), it's the grubby little bigots who have control of the narrative and their morally vacuous apologists I want to drown in vats of marmalade.
Sub state nationalism always tends towards political idiocy, and this thread is a brilliant example of it. I have not seen one attempt to refute the allegations made by SU; instead it's deflection all the way, and low personal morality in insisting everyone is like this so why bother reaching higher? Silly me, I thought Snuppies claimed a moral highground - now I see those here admitting to be opportunistic hypocrites.
I don't mean to pick on Observer (well, yes I do), but her comment at 1412 hrs on 12/8 is one of the most morally vacuous comments I have seen for a while on the Internet (and it is up against some stiff competition):
>> Belligerent and militaristic rhetoric is common amongst politicians in all parties.
I cannot believe (well, yes I can) that someone whom I have seen boasting of her anti-war and pacifistic credentials on The Herald site, and opining that the invasion of Iraq has fueled support for boviating reactionaries such as Fish-heid McMoonface (despite being backed evenly in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK, and willingly fought for by Scots troops [1]) should now be dismissing "belligerent and militaristic rhetoric" just 'cos it suits her purposes.
You cannot be trusted on anything, can you?
[1] Such as 3 SCOTS which, during Operation Panther's Claw, has done more to help suffering strangers than anyone here.
Observer,
JUst a thought...the people who worry most about paranoia are the paranoid, (I wouldn't be so paranoid if those bastards weren't out to get me....), so calling the other fellow paranoid is usually a sign that it's you that's paranoid....
Not sure that anyone finds independence per se a threat. Why would they? Can you explain your reasoning on this? Why would SU or me find independence a threat?
As for so-called "Scottishness" and "Britishness" diverging because of political difference..
..that's just illogical.
My council area has SNP, Labour, Tory, Lib Dem and Independent councillors. Does that mean the various housing schemes and posh estates are so politically divergent that they have to split up into smaller units?
The Central Belt is traditionally left leaning and the North East more Tory/Lib Dem. Does that mean we have to separate and set up diferent states?
Just posing the question shows how daft it is. Anti-democratic to boot.
Social Democrat (1:19am)
I’ll first deal with your claim that I’m being disingenuous. The research is in the public domain, and I have previously said:
“Research conducted in 2006 by Glasgow University’s Bill Miller and Asifa Hussain found that 38% of people in Scotland harbour anti-English feeling. Among nationalists that figure rose to 46% but even among unionists it was a disgraceful 33%. Don’t figures like that suggest a serious problem?”
Now, our figures are slightly different. You used 43%; I used 46%. That’s because Miller and Hussain used two different measures of nationalism: between “social or cultural nationalism” and “political nationalism”, or between “national identity” and “support for the SNP”.
The two measures are quite different. The Scottish Election Study 2007 cross-referenced national identity categories with support for independence:
• 3% of the “more British than Scottish” group favoured independence
• 7% of the “equally British and Scottish” group favoured independence
• 25% of the “more Scottish than British” group favoured independence
• 54% of the “Scottish not British” group favoured independence.
The same study also looked at support for independence (in a straight yes-no sense) among voters for each party.
•68% of SNP voters favoured independence.
•6% of Labour voters favoured independence.
•5% of Conservative voters favoured independence.
•13% of Liberal Democrat voters favoured independence.
Miller says:
“Compared to those who feel ‘equally Scottish and British’ those who feel exclusively Scottish are 13% more Anglophobic.”
So I would accept that there’s more to it than just saying that 43% or 46% of nationalists are anti-English. Large numbers of SNP voters don’t actually support independence and likewise, small but significant minorities of non-SNP voters do. Anglophobia is also a serious problem amongst those who don’t bother to vote. And there are clearly also very large numbers of soft nationalists who for pragmatic rather than ideological reasons would vote against independence but who harbour distinctly anti-English views.
It’s the nature of nationalism (social and/or political) which is even more significant here, and much research exists on that. Here’s a paragraph from another of Prof Miller’s papers.
“Civic nationalism can easily degenerate into ethnic nationalism. For Gellner (1994, pp.1-2) ‘nationalist sentiment’ is at root a ‘feeling of anger’; for Breuilly (1993, pp.5-7), although nationalism can be asserted in a ‘universalist [i.e. civic] spirit’ it has ‘not often been so sweetly reasonable’. For Vincent (1997, p.294): ‘nationalism will always resist being assimilated into liberalism…and easily collapses into…shallow expressions of blood, soil and xenophobia’; for Pulzer (1988, p.287; see also Porter, 2000) ‘nationalism degenerates… often inspired in its first stage by the urge to emancipate, it finds its logical conclusion in a paroxysm of destructiveness’.”
This is what I meant in a previous post when I said:
“So-called civic nationalism is an unstable construct which often gives rise to cultural and even ethnic notions of separateness.”
Continued...
And that’s why my citation of people like Ian Hamilton, Winnie Ewing and Gordon Wilson is so significant. All had been active in the SNP in recent years, well after the public adoption of the “civic” credo. Yet all exhibit very unpleasant attitudes. There really is no parallel among senior politicians from other parties. In respect of other phobias – perhaps. But for Anglophobia – no.
These aspects of Miller and Hussain’s work are also very telling:
Scots would lose their identity if more English people came to Scotland:
CON = 37%; LAB = 39%; LIB = 33%; SNP = 53%
I would be unhappy if a relative of mine married an English person:
CON = 1%; LAB = 4%; LIB = 2%; SNP = 12%
Observer
"People like Winnie Ewing and Gordon Wilson are from another era, that quite frankly I am not that familiar with."
Ah. The old ignorance argument...
OK Observer. Try this for justification.
A current serving SNP MSP wrote in my local paper that, and I quote, "people like (me) loathe the very concept of Scotland".
I.e., according to my SNP representative, if you don't agree with him/her you are a traitor. Not Winnie Ewing or any old guard. Not "Oh that was soooo long ago, ...yawn". Today. This very minute. In Holyrood. Right now. Representing the SNP. But obviously not representing me... or "people like me", i.e. the majority of their constituents.
Observer, you always seem so reasonable. Don't you ever ask yourself why you are so often in the company of, and agreement with, the more boorish and nasty posters on these forums...?
It can't just be coincidence that the vasst mahority of the bile comes from the supporters of independence. Can it?
Wardog (8:15am)
Would I be right in thinking that you have no sense of Britishness yourself? If you did, you would realise that your talk of empire building, imperialism, supplanting identities and subjugation is so wide of the mark as to be both lamentable and laughable.
A letter in the Times of 18/9/08, commenting on Liam Byrne’s interesting pamphlet about Britishness said:
“Sir, Britishness today is the very absence of an overriding national identity. Not only is this unique, but it is evidence of a potentially innovating culture.”
I thought that was pretty close to the mark. There’s what might be termed a “vanilla essence” to Britishness. It lends itself to all kinds of nuances.
So Byrne, for example, is English-Irish-British. I’m Scottish-Irish-British, with two English grandparents!
Others are English-Pakistani-British, Lebanese-Welsh-British or just plain Scottish-British, English-British etc.
In each case, the Britishness sits on top in an absolutely unassuming manner, creating a common social framework without compromising the cultural and national identity which lies beneath. It’s a peculiarly anti-nationalistic nationality, and as such eludes a trite description while at the same time being more than capable of speaking for itself without a great deal of active promotion.
You said: “It is unionism that seeks to conserve the sub-nation status of Scotland”
Nonsense. Scotland is a nation. What you appear to be unable to get your head around is that nations self-define and don’t necessarily coincide with nation-state boundaries. Examples include Scotland within the United Kingdom, Texas within the United States, Cornwall within England (itself within Britain), Catalonia within Spain, the Basque Country within both Spain and France, Bavaria within Germany, and so on.
Observer I just saw this.
"Scottish Unionist I don't deny for a minute that there are some extremist characters out there, who think that the Scots are a separate race, who think that the English are vile oppressors, and that everyone who doesn't support independence is a quisling or a traitor. They're nutjobs."
See my previous post. THey may be nutjobs, but at least one of them is a serving SNP MSP, who has used those very sentiments against me and "people like me", i.e. all non nationalists.
Rationalise that.
Braveheart:
At the root of this is a belief, common amongst even avowedly civic nationalists, that to desire independence for Scotland is inherently pro-Scotland and that to disagree is anti-Scottish, treacherous or even racist. An example is the SNP's arrogant and divisive reference to itself as “Scotland's Party”.
Braveheart, I wouldn't hold your breath for a reply which actually replies and doesn't change the subject.
Everything I have seen of Observer suggests she is of single-minded determination which finds a solution and then fits her argument to augment it. Such a complete inability to even consider alternative plans must fit in well Salmond's Blairism which verges on the Stalinist approach of his father.
Well! I seem to have rattled a few cages. I will come back and reply to you all later when I have the time.
Hi SU
Civic nationalism exists amongst all the political parties. Indeed the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems have often professed that they want to protect or champion “British Values” and “protect British interests”. Furthermore, all of these parties (even the Lib Dems) oppose a Federal Europe and favour British independence. This all conforms with the definition of civic nationalism as defending the value of national identity by saying that individuals need a national identity in order to lead meaningful, autonomous lives (Kymlicka, 1995) and that liberal democratic polities need national identity in order to function properly (Miller, 1995). As I have said before if I am defined as a Scottish nationalist because I want to see reserved powers transferred to Holrood then surely it is fair to define you as a British nationalist if you want to oppose such transfer in order to maintain the contemporary perceived concept of British nationality?
Therefore, if civic nationalism is “an unstable construct which often gives rise to cultural and even ethnic notions of separateness” then that is true for British civic nationalism as well as Scottish civic nationalism. Therefore, it is something all of us must guard against.
I would strongly suggest that the best way to help eradicate prejudice in our society is to concentrate on the real bigots as well as tackling ignorance (proven to be the primary driver of prejudice) rather than constantly slurring liberal, progressive and social democratic supporters of independence.
"Britishness sits on top "
Listen to yourself.
"Nonsense. Scotland is a nation"
Then why do you work so hard to preevent the distinctiveness of that nation being represented on the world stage, why do you seek to 'minoritise' it under a british voice which immediately distances Scots from the world?
Scotland in Europe would do me nicely, why do we need Britain?
efrafandays said...
"Braveheart, I wouldn't hold your breath for a reply which actually replies and doesn't change the subject."
To which Observer replied...
"Well! I seem to have rattled a few cages. I will come back and reply to you all later when I have the time."
Looks like you were right efrafandays.
It's the old Monty Python strategy "Run away! Run away!".
So the next time Observer shows up on theese forums, I will have to put the question to her again. She can't run away every time. Can she?
Observer rattling the cages.
Indeed, and the baboons seem to be getting noisy.
Braveheart "may be nutjob"
Don't be so hard on yourself darling,
“Sir, Britishness today is the very absence of an overriding national identity. Not only is this unique, but it is evidence of a potentially innovating culture.”
LOL
Great, so your advocating the dissolution of the united kingdom and the handing over of full sovereignty to a European federal state and then perhaps a world or 'human' state.
Surely that is the logical conclusion of 'unionism'
Why stop at 'Britain' AM2?
“Sir, Scottishness today is the very absence of an overriding national identity. "
“Sir, Frenchness today is the very absence of an overriding national identity. "
“Sir, Danishness today is the very absence of an overriding national identity. "
“Sir, Englishness today is the very absence of an overriding national identity. "
Meaningless.
Wardog (4:21pm)
"Britishness sits on top "
Listen to yourself.
*sigh* Sits on top, alongside, underpins, whatever. Cringe!
Wardog (4:27pm)
“Great, so your advocating the dissolution of the united kingdom...”
Are you making any effort to understand what is being said here or are you just out to debase the thread with sloganising?
No, I’m not advocating any more shifting of borders. Haven’t we had enough of that in recent years? It rarely comes to much good.
The United Kingdom is a multinational union. But the constituent nations haven’t been absorbed or subsumed into a single homogeneous entity. So Britain is a nation of nations, in which Scotland can still be fully Scotland. We aren’t culturally or politically oppressed. I simply admire the ‘anti-nationalist’ nature of the union structure, which, to me, embodies openness and generosity.
Social Democrat (3:10pm)
I admire and share your obviously genuine commitment to eradicating prejudice. But I am not “slurring” anyone by pointing out that a significantly greater proportion of nationalists than unionists are anti-English and that civic nationalism isn’t a stable ideology.
After all, civic nationalism is a much subtler notion than cultural or ethnic nationalism. One might even say that it requires a certain amount of intelligence to sustain.
I think we’ll have to agree to disagree over whether or not I am a “British nationalist”. Perhaps we’re not entirely in agreement on the definition of nationalism. To me, what most characterises nationalism is that its adherents see themselves as members of only one nation, which almost axiomatically should then be an independent state. By contrast, unionism is a philosophy in which nations can overlap and people can identify on a cultural and political level in a nuanced way with more than one nation — in my case, both to Scotland and Britain.
I have to say: there’s a lack of common sense on display from those who are trying to downplay the anti-Englishness which so often features in Scots nationalism.
So far I’ve kept the cybernats out of this thread, but I think I’ll open my big book of quotes for a minute:
“Independance from English scum NOW!” - brodr
“there are numerous reasons to hate the English and race alone is not one of them...” – Fat Freddys
“I wouldn't pay too much heed to Pete from Paisley. He is obviously English...” – Guga II
“I think that most Europeans would agree that the one and only problem with Europe is the bloody English and their ever faithful servant lackeys here in Scotland.” – Hunky Dorey
“if was not for the English EGO there would be no SNP” – Jock Tamson
“My views are NOT a CCc of the SNP BUT yours are CCc of an Arogant English know it all!!!!” – Eve
“The English are perhaps more foreign to Scotland than any other people on earth!” – An Australian of Scottish Ancestry
“to #8 a personal request come up here and i will personally shjow to you my hatred to you english scum” – robibhoy
“The inglish may start to dislike the Scots, but NOBODY in the rest of the world likes the inglish.” – Maurice
“English hatred? As we are in Scotland and all the barbarism the english have committed over the years we are not to be blamed. The reaction is fully justified and growing.” – Ard Righ
“Scumbag **** off this site you thick engerlish to**er.” – Dirty Harry Callaghan
“The little englanders are revolting!!! But were they ever really anything else?” – ‘Suck’ McCrunchie
“let the English say what they like... these ignorant pigs forget that they are a once big nation now on the fast decline” - the_big_kev
“We don't ignore midges when they try to bite us,why ignore an english when we can use the target practice.There is no doubt Scotland moves toward being Scotland again,an independent country clear of english oppression and it's sick,twisted culture.” – T. MacIntosh
“Who cares what this english f*ckwank thinks?” – Foo
“The base idea of an independent Scotland is a Scotland absent the bloody english.” - T. MacIntosh
“You say I hate the English? Not true, I just like my fellow Scots more - even you.” – I’m no really here
“We wont be short changed any more by the english blood suckers who only want us for our oil!” – The Second Coming
“SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH HIM. HE MUST BE ENGLISH.” – Casey Purvis
“sleekit English MEP’s” – Col Blimp III
“The English are god-dammed liars” – t.c.e.k.
“not many people do like them...and with very good reason.” – wisdom
“vote SNP and get rid of this english filth” – alexander/
“P*** off to England where you belong” – Auckland Arab
“ye wee english to**er … sh** stirring wee tw**” – Greig frae oz
“the english ther knowing as trouble makers any way” – Scotland for Ever
“We want to get fid [sic] of that parasite slug off our ass, it's called England.” – Alan Reid
etc etc
Not to mention the junior cybernats...
And then we have stuff like this...
From the Independent, 26th September 1996:
Labour criticised a Young Scots for Independence leaflet, mainly distributed at recent pop concerts. The leaflet quoted the book and film Trainspotting by Irvine Welsh with the words that the English were "wankers". Labour MP Maria Fyffe said the leaflet was racist and called for its withdrawal.
From the Spectator, 30th May 1998:
“A recent recruitment leaflet for the Scottish Nationalist student wing reads as follows: `Some people hate the English . . . but I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are colonised by wankers. We can't even pick a decent culture to be colonised by. We are ruled by effete arseholes. It's a shite state of affairs and all the fresh air in the world will not make any fucking difference. Choose independence.' The text is taken from the cult novel Trainspotting in order to give it a spurious literary legitimacy, but the message is plain enough: English people and all they stand for are not wanted.”
From Hansard, 6th November 1996:
Mr. Raymond Robertson: Therefore--if the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan is serious about the issues that he raised today, and serious in bringing them to the attention of the House and the Government--he will take this opportunity to disown the obscene and xenophobic filth produced by his party's youth wing. My right hon. Friend Secretary of State has challenged him on two occasions to dissociate himself from the remarks. I now give him a third opportunity, in the House, to dissociate himself from his party's youth wing and from that leaflet.
Mr. Alex Salmond: I will give the Minister the opportunity to tell us what he will do about the 900-year history of feudal obligation in Scotland. What measure will be in the Government's legislative programme, and when will the Minister start addressing the issue instead of delivering his mindless abuse?
Mr. Robertson: It is now on the record, for the third time, that the hon. Gentleman will not dissociate himself from that leaflet, which, as I said, is nothing short of obscene, xenophobic and anti-English filth.
From the same Spectator article:
“Consider one example of racism in action. In 1993, a group called Scottish Watch, whose treasurer was a college lecturer in Dumfries, appointed an official to co-ordinate a `spring offensive' against English people buying houses in Scotland. They claimed that English buyers put up house prices and dispossessed local people. Their aim was to make people feel like traitors if they sold their houses to people from the south. They intimidated not only English people, but Scottish people who had not seen the English as the enemy for over 300 years - and some of them not even then. Scottish Watch attempted to manipulate routine complaints about house prices into racial war. They may have only had about 120 activists, but they claimed to have members `at all levels of the SNP'.”
Think I'll stop there for now.
Belligerant language. Margaret Thatcher calling her wets traitors and quislings. Enoch Powell promising us rivers of blood. George Galloway calling Henry Kissinger the greatest war criminal of all time. Trade unionism and the old Labour Party - all based on ''struggle''. I really don't want to be forced to have to google, I really do think people should accept that politicians use such language, it's not confined to the SNP.
Braveheart - you seem to confuse ethnicity with citizenship.
Scottish Unionist introduced the concept of threat by asking me if I expected him to be threatened by what I had to say. Why on earth does he think that?
Braveheart again - I switched to the SNP permanently about a decade ago as their policies, including independence, made a lot more sense to me than any other parties. I would point out here that I didn't leave the Labour Party - they left me. I don't really care what happened in the 1970's etc. Should I?
And I think we have seen rather a lot of selective literalism on this thread, if you don't mind my saying so.
And efrafandays - please do introduce yourself. A moniker I will recognise please. You've obviously studied what has been posted under mine, I presume you didn't suffer in silence?
Needless to say all these examples of Anglophobia are utterly disgusting and they have no place in civilised society.
The point I'm making is that the SNP and the wider independence movement is a progressive, multi-cultural and social democratic movement. Obviously there are racist Anglophobic idiots who profess support for independence. However, these people are in a tiny minority and it is not right for you to insinuate that the SNP (and presumably other pro-independence parties such as the Greens and the SSP) is brimming with evil racists hiding behind a veneer of decency. That insinuation is conspiratorial nonsense and it is deeply offensive.
Similarly various racists and bigots who profess Unionist loyalties are completely out of sink with the mainstream of Unionism.
We should focus on tackling prejudice and its root causes. This should be above party politics.
Cheers
“Needless to say all these examples of Anglophobia are utterly disgusting and they have no place in civilised society.”
You’re right to condemn them. What a shame that Alex Salmond repeatedly declined to condemn the SNP youth wing’s Anglophobic leaflet.
“The SNP and the wider independence movement is a progressive, multi-cultural and social democratic movement.”
The SNP professes to be. Can the same be said of individuals like Campbell Martin, groups like Siol nan Giadheal and parties like the Scottish Independence Party?
The Scottish Green Party isn’t a nationalist party. Decentralisation and subsidiarity are their guiding principles. I don’t agree, but it’s a perspective which I can respect.
"I simply admire the ‘anti-nationalist’ nature of the union structure,"
More meaningless platitudes that fly in the face of your advocacy of a British state.
Why do we need Britain AM2, why not dissolve it and have a European federal state or indeed a world state?
Why are you avoiding the logic of your argument?
Campbell Martin, Siol nan Giadheal and the Scottish Independence Party would be just as irrelevant in an independent Scotland as they are just now.
I am quite a supporter of the Greens in many ways, but for now I will vote for the SNP. In an independent Scotland I will vote for who has the best policies in my opinion.
That is what I presume most of us will do. But we will have removed a tier of Government which I don't think is necessary. It's how we are governed we are talking about here, the idea that when you vote you get the policies the majority have voted for. Doesn't always work like that in Scotland does it. Unless I imagined 1979 - 1997.
“More meaningless platitudes that fly in the face of your advocacy of a British state.”
They’re meaningless platitudes to you, Wardog. But not me. And anyway, you didn’t answer my question. Would I be right in thinking that you have no sense of Britishness yourself? If you did, you would realise that your talk of empire building, imperialism, supplanting identities and subjugation is so wide of the mark as to be both lamentable and laughable.
“Why do we need Britain AM2, why not dissolve it and have a European federal state or indeed a world state?”
We don’t “need” state lines to be drawn in any particular place. To think otherwise would be nationalistic! And the EU is already very close to being a de facto federation. Distributed sovereignty exists in the here and now. British government has served the people of the United Kingdom very well. Scottish devolution is, to my mind, enabling closer decision making on domestic issues. And European integration, with the possible exception of the Common Fisheries Policy, enables vital co-operation and trade across the broader region. So multi-level government, despite its inevitable tensions, increases accountability. Strip British representation out of the picture and Scotland’s international position is much diminished.
SU
This is indeed a popular thread, and I can see the passion is running high on both sides of the argument.
But...
"British Government has served the people of the United Kingdom very well."
No it hasn't. Even if you say it enough times it hasn't. When 30-40% of adults vote for a party whose main aim is Independence, then things are far from "well". Things need to change. And if the UK Government does not take this seriously enough, e.g. Calman, then change will happen from within Scotland.
"Strip British representation out of the picture and Scotland’s international position is much diminished."
A laughable and decidedly amateur comment from you AM2.
a) Scotland and indeed England has no international position at a political level. Any politics at an international level are reserved to Westminster and the British state.
b) With self determination Scotland would have its own voice in international politics which is more than none.
c) When the UK actively negotiates with other states against Scotland stated position it is WORSE than no voice eg Nuclear, Fishing, Energy.
d) Although Scotlands international position would be much weaker than the UK is now. A combined Scottish and rump UK voice would be just as strong or stronger (especially in Europe as there would be more seats from Britain overall) than little old UK on its own.
QED.
I think you mean 30%-40% of those adults who vote, which is at most 20% of all adults.
But I take your broader point, and of course that's part of the reason why the devolution settlement has been reviewed, and no doubt will continue to be refined periodically. Ditto the soul-searching in the wake of the expenses scandal, etc. There's a great deal of upside.
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
The 'dialogue' on this thread carries has a distant echo of that between Episcopalians and Presbyterians - where Britishness has the status of the Bishops.
David:
“A laughable and decidedly amateur comment from you AM2.
Do you think so? Well, let’s see how your comment stacks up...
“a) Scotland and indeed England has no international position at a political level. Any politics at an international level are reserved to Westminster and the British state. ”
That is because Scotland and England self-determine to be part of the United Kingdom and to be jointly represented alongside the other two home nations. Overall, I think that’s a beneficial arrangement. Clearly you disagree. But as Alex Salmond said: “At each and every election we have the ability to vote ourselves into independence.” So if you want to change it, you know what needs to be done!
“b) With self determination Scotland would have its own voice in international politics which is more than none. ”
Scotland has self-determination; see above.
I agree that it would be “more than none”, but it would also be less than at present. Most of the time, Scottish interests coincide with the rest of the United Kingdom. We are part of the same country, after all! So we usually have 72 MEPs batting for us. Ireland, for example, has only 12.
And Britain has a voice very much louder than any small country could ever dream of achieving. As Liam Byrne has said: “Uniquely we are members of the UN Security Council, the OECD, the G8, the EC, NATO, the Commonwealth and the Council of Europe, and we have a track record of leadership on the international stage on issues ranging from peacekeeping to climate change to ending third world debt.”
So being part of the UK amplifies Scotland’s voice.
“c) When the UK actively negotiates with other states against Scotland stated position it is WORSE than no voice eg Nuclear, Fishing, Energy. ”
You make it sound malicious! Is that how you see it?
Now, a majority of Scots actually want to retain our nuclear deterrent. I’ve mentioned fishing above; in that regard I sympathise with the SNP’s position. But compromise is inherent in any political structure, unless you want complete isolationism, which carries its own much more significant problems. On energy, should I presume you’re again alluding to the anti-nuclear stance which the SNP imagines the people of Scotland to share but which surveys indicate isn’t the case.
But anyway, even if the “stated position” wasn’t the same, how would that be different to a situation where a country is overruled in Europe? You can’t have it both ways. Do you want to make all your own decisions or do you want to cooperate with your neighbours? I’ll take the latter.
“d) Although Scotlands international position would be much weaker than the UK is now. A combined Scottish and rump UK voice would be just as strong or stronger (especially in Europe as there would be more seats from Britain overall) than little old UK on its own. ”
The interests of an independent Scotland would inevitably diverge from the so-called “rump UK” (such a charming term). How often does Scotland have common cause in Europe with anyone other than the rest of the existing UK?
“QED.”
Actually, I believe that acronym is normally used to signify that a watertight case has been made.
Erm, thanks for that, Ratzo. Not a specialist subject of mine, but can I presume you're not an Episcopalian? ;-)
I've rejected a couple of comments now for being off-topic. Yours was borderline. In case there's any doubt, the thread-starter was about anti-Englishness.
"Would I be right in thinking that you have no sense of Britishness yourself?"
I have a sense of Britishness from the words printed on my passport, from the BBC every night handing over to BBC Scotland and a commonality of being on the British Isles.
Again, however you conflate identity and statehood.
Imagine if you will a renewed 'union', a 'union of the isles', that is more of a pact within a European context, of European nations defending each other where necessary, freely trading and sharing sovereignty to increase mutual gain.
Why would you deny Scotland a meaningful part in that arrangement?
Why do we need 'another cog' of Government, that is far removed and can only ever see Scotland as a small proportion of the overall UK.
Why should we be forced to accept such compromises when we can decide for ourselves., here in Scotland.
Imagine that 'union of the isles' as giving autonomy to raise and spend taxation, exploit our natural resources and pursue policies voted for by the population of Scotland.
How can that possibly be seen as a negative thing?
“I have a sense of Britishness from the words printed on my passport, from the BBC every night handing over to BBC Scotland and a commonality of being on the British Isles.”
Thought not. Blimey, how shallow!
Re: On topic.
You appear to have rejected my comments on your assertions of 'anti-English'. My post did not break house. Please clarify?
Re: Scottish representation.
My point a) clearly uses self determination in the context of Scotland participating as a State. It cannot do that.
Your additional remarks then lead from your initial and irrelevant deflection. My points are undoubtedly flawed, nevertheless you failed to pick relevant holes in them.
"How often does Scotland have common cause in Europe with anyone other than the rest of the existing UK?" Never - Scotland cannot align with any EU member as it has no representation of its own. Again QED.
“Why should we be forced to accept such compromises when we can decide for ourselves., here in Scotland.”
We’re not being “forced” to accept anything! Only a minority of people in Scotland want independence.
For example, the June 2009 ICM/BBC poll found that 63% of people want the UK government to take “most of the important decisions for Scotland about defence and foreign affairs”.
David:
“My point a) clearly uses self determination in the context of Scotland participating as a State. It cannot do that.
That’s oxymoronic. Even Alex Salmond has acknowledged that only about a quarter of Scots want to separate from the rest of Britain. We are self-determining to share sovereignty within Britain.
“My points are undoubtedly flawed, nevertheless you failed to pick relevant holes in them.”
You’ll be the judge of that!
Scottish Unionist - if the Scottish electorate have self determined in the past to be part of the UK, then they can equally well self determine in the future to leave it.
I don't think that will be on the basis of disliking the English. Because they're not stupid. You don't actually cast your vote on the basis of being annoyed by sports coverage or whatever nonsense usually evokes anti-English feeling. You cast your vote on the basis of what you think is going to be best for you and your family and the wider society you live in.
I think Ratzo is right, this is entering the politically equivalent territory of how many unionists or nationalists and all things in between can dance on the end of a pin before falling off.
Anyway goodnight, it has been an interesting discussion.
Although 1996 was a long time ago and I can only find one reference to the event on the internet (the one you have linked) I’m genuinely sure that I can recollect Alex Salmond and other SNP figures roundly condemning the Anglophobic leaflet at the time and rightly so. Certainly no-one in their right mind could accuse Alex Salmond of not having a commendable track record of condemning all forms of prejudice and championing a multi-cultural Scotland.
The SNP IS a progressive, multi-cultural and social democratic party and those ideologies underpin the wider independence movement in Scotland:
http://www.scottishindependenceconvention.com/ResouceMain.asp
There are idiots with odious opinions on all manners of issues on both sides of the constitutional debate. I wouldn’t attempt to generically accuse unionists of suppressed racism due to the numerous racist gaffes from Tory politicians and activists, because of Gordon Brown’s “British jobs for British people”, because many Tories (such as Murdo Fraser) opposed Nelson Mandella therefore tacitly supporting apartheid.
The Scottish Green Party is a pro-independence party.
Sorry I didn't notice you'd closed the thread.
Thanks. That was an interesting discusion.
Social Democrat:
You may have the last word. Observer is right about dancing on pinheads. Thread closed.