21 July 2009

Guest post: Scotland in a federal Britain

Posted by Scottish Unionist at 11:51 PM. There are 54 comments.
This guest post, by Duncan Stephen of DoctorVee and Scottish Roundup fame, provides some interesting thoughts on national identity and his preferred constitutional model: a federal UK.

I TAP OUT the first draft of this article on the train, travelling from my home town of Kirkcaldy for a trip to Oxford. I have to confess that this is the furthest afield I have been for a substantial period of time. I'm not an adventurous sort of person, so I probably haven't travelled further than about 90 minutes from home for about ten years. An interesting opportunity came up at late notice, so how convenient it was for me to be able to simply hop on the train.

"So what?", you may say, and you'd be right. It's no big deal. No one seriously pretends that the break-up of the Union would cause any difficulties for trains running across the border. This is a globalised age, after all. If I wanted to, I could pop on the train and go to Paris -- and beyond.

But in a way, that's the very thing that perplexes me about nationalism. It doesn't matter where you live, what the country is called or where the border is drawn. Life goes on, stuff happens, and I can get on the train. Does England feel a bit foreign? Maybe it does. But so does Glasgow. So do the Highlands. Indeed, even Edinburgh -- mere miles away as the crow flies -- is positively exotic compared to Kirkcaldy.

It is an oft-held misconception among some supporters of independence that if you are not a Scottish nationalist it must mean that you are some other sort of nationalist -- probably a British nationalist. Not me. Ask me if I'm Scottish, British or other, and I will reply that I am simply me. I am comfortable enough with my identity not to have to attach myself to symbols of any sort. Concerns about my nationality are the least of my worries as I go about my daily business.

This is a deeply personal question about one's identity. How you define yourself probably goes the majority of the way towards determining your views on the constitution. For instance, if you feel, as the response goes, "Scottish not British", you are very likely to favour Scottish independence and will be happy for Scotland to have nothing to do with Westminster again.

For those of us with more nuanced (or is that muddled?) views on our nationality, we may be more likely to favour some other type of constitutional arrangement. But it is a very personal question, all about how you feel inside. You cannot rationalise it. For that reason, I find the link between nationality and government rather bogus.

The reason for the link is not because there is something magical about one's nationality. It is simply because it is expedient. It just so happens that nationalities tend to be confined to specific geographic areas, so it makes it easy to divvy up the world along those lines.

But this is the twenty-first century; a post-globalisation world. The world isn't really divvied up any more. Instead, we are governed by ever-more complex sets of trans-national agreements. There is no question of Scottish independence any more. No nation can hope to be "independent" in any meaningful sense today.

This reality is actually widely acknowledged. The desirability of these international relationships is recognised by the mainstream of the Scottish nationalist movement. The SNP no longer call for Scottish independence. Their concern is no longer about self-governance or home rule. It is about Scotland's relationship with these intergovernmental organisations. They seek "independence within Europe".

This slogan is in deference to the importance of the European Union in the governance of Scotland. No longer are we governed simply by Westminster. And the devolution process didn't begin with the establishment of a Scottish Parliament at Holyrood. It is simply a part of an even more fundamental trend -- the decentralisation of government, and the dispersal of power across several, complex layers of government.

An "independent" Scotland would not just be one that was "independent in Europe". It would be a Scotland that was a small part of a massively complex international governance system, encompassing organisations like the EU, the UN, Nato (okay, maybe not if the SNP has its way) and any number of international organisations.

The problem for the cause of independence is that this becomes not a simple case of forging a new era of home rule. It just means tediously re-building the connections that Scotland needs to be plugged into. Just look at the debate over what would happen to Scotland's membership of the EU if it became independent. Would Scotland have to re-apply? Some say yes, some say no. The fact is that no-one knows, so resources will have to be expended as armies of bureaucrats are charged with working out what on earth should happen.

Another question for me is, what is it that is unusual about Westminster that it needs to be taken out of the equation, and not some other layer of government? Some might say that, particularly in the past couple of years, there has been somewhat of a pongy whiff of sleaze emanating from the Westminster area. From what I gather, though, the British political system is actually among the least corrupt in the world. In many other systems, if you want something to get done, it involves knowing who is the right person to bribe. That sort of thing hasn't been eliminated completely in the British political system, but it is hardly endemic.

So what would be gained by taking Westminster out of the equation? Well, maybe some Scottish nationalists will feel a bit better about themselves, in which case good luck to them. Perhaps there are others who believe that a politics based in Holyrood would inevitably be less corrupt, and closer to the people.

There is a fair point to that. I agree that the principle of subsidiarity is key. But another danger is too much centralisation. In this sense, independence would give more power to fewer people -- a dangerous concoction in my view.

What with me being a wishy-washy type who is ambivalent about my nationality, my favoured system is, perhaps inevitably, a kind of federalist system. Subsidiarity is important, but power cannot be concentrate around a small clique. A federal system could also take advantage of the economies of scale that result from not duplicating the same administrative functions over and over.

Maybe there is an argument about whether it's right to have a layer at that level. Why not leave bread-and-butter stuff for one level (say Holyrood), and that more ethereal, complex stuff at a more international level, with no mid-way point in between?

But there is something useful about the UK, in that the majority of it is quite conveniently defined by the geographical realities of the island of Great Britain. Throw in some extra islands (many of which would be in Scotland anyway) and you've got the UK (let's just leave Northern Ireland aside because of the complex issues that are specific to that situation).

As territories go, it's fairly neat. We share an island, and with a population of roughly 60 million it is a comfortable enough size for a country to be. There is also another fact that comes along with sharing an island, which is that it is a good idea to for resources to be pooled when it comes to things like natural disasters or outbreaks of disease.

Would it be as easy to deal with, say, the Foot and Mouth outbreak, or the current issue with swine flu, if Great Britain was governed by more than one legislature? It's fine to leave the local stuff to devolved parliaments, but I can't help but think that it would only be to our benefit if issues that had the potential to affect the whole of Great Britain like this remain decided at a Britain-wide level.

So I cannot be moved by the arguments in favour of independence. It strikes me as an odd pursuit. I'm a geek for constitutional issues as much as the next person, but if Scotland were to gain "independence", it would be a hollow type of independence, and one moreover that would be costly to achieve in the medium term.
54 comments
  1. Giles Smedley July 22, 2009 6:58 AM  

    A thought provoking article. Thank you.

  2. sm753 July 22, 2009 8:01 AM  

    Good stuff, but I'm not entirely clear that you actually are proposing a "federal" model, rather than a bit more devolution!

  3. Social Democrat July 22, 2009 1:42 PM  

    A really interesting article. I personally believe in “independence” or full sovereignty in order to attain equality for the Scottish nation within the wider inter-dependent international community. If we call Scotland a country then why shouldn't we have the same powers as every other country around Europe? I think we should celebrate diversity as a keystone of internationalism and global unity.

    As it happens nowhere really feels particularly "foreign" to me. Different yes, but never “foreign”. We are all human beings and it is that universal identity that is most important. I am very much so, first and foremost a global citizen.

  4. Scottish Unionist July 22, 2009 2:25 PM  

    Social Democrat:

    I’m interested in your claim that independence would result in “equality” for Scotland. Is that mere rhetoric or does it have any actual meaning?

    I ask because, in my view — which presumably Duncan shares — Scotland’s present arrangement as a component nation of the United Kingdom actually gives us significant advantages over most similarly sized independent nations. In other words, to be “equal” would actually diminish us.

  5. Indy July 22, 2009 4:02 PM  

    Equality means simply that the Scottish Government and Parliament would have the same decision-making powers as other national parliaments.

    There is of course an argument against that if you are a unionist.

    However you don't have to be in the SNP to understand the logic behind the equality argument.

    For example this is how the Greens defined independence in their 2007 manifesto:


    Independence

    'The only way to determine Scotland’s constitutional future is
    by referendum, because only a referendum allows a clear choice on a constitutional matter that often crosses party divides. In any referendum the Scottish Green Party will campaign for the Scottish Parliament to have the same powers as any other member state in an increasingly interdependent European Union.'

  6. Andrew BOD July 22, 2009 7:22 PM  

    An interesting headline to stimulate much debate. Pity about the content in which the author spent most of his time trying and failing, to argue against independence, and spending little time on how a federal UK would work. I mean... "let's just leave Northern Ireland aside..." ?? This really is an interesting debate, but one which needs to be well thought out, not just a series of laid back musings that betray the real theme.

  7. Social Democrat July 22, 2009 7:46 PM  

    Hi SU!

    It is evident from the fact that Scotland isn’t entitled to a seat at the UN or that we don’t have full membership of the European Union (with the right to hold the presidency for example) that our current constitutional arrangement doesn’t afford Scotland equality with other nations as a full member of the international community.

    With full sovereignty Scotland will attain the right to forge alliances with any other country in Europe or around the world on any variety of subjects rather than being restricted to the boundaries of a small group of islands off the west coast of Europe. Furthermore, we would have the opportunity to develop a more equitable and modern relationship between the nations of these islands similar to the Nordic Union: formally celebrating our strong regional ties without denying the component nations the right to full, distinctive and profitable membership of the international community.

    In my opinion the real advantages for Scotland lie with becoming a full member of the inter-dependent 21st century global union rather than remaining isolated and separated from the international community with limited powers in an inequitable, small and archaic 18th century regional union.

  8. sm753 July 22, 2009 9:42 PM  

    Indy

    "Equality means simply that the Scottish Government and Parliament would have the same decision-making powers as other national parliaments.

    There is of course an argument against that if you are a unionist."

    There are several.

    Define "national".

    Catalonia?

    Bavaria?

    Wales?

  9. Scottish Unionist July 22, 2009 11:00 PM  

    Hi SD!

    When I see a post like that, all I see is wall-to-wall rhetoric. Very good rhetoric, I concede: superficially compelling and time-consuming to fisk. But rhetoric nonetheless.

    Re: “Scotland isn’t entitled to a seat at the UN”

    Scotland is a constituent part of a larger nation which not only has a seat but is a permanent member of the UN Security Council with veto rights, etc. So in ceding autonomy our voice is amplified, not muzzled.

    we don’t have full membership of the European Union

    Again, true. But within Britain we become part of larger bloc of 72 British seats in the European Parliament. An independent Scotland would have perhaps 13. When was the last time Finland, for example, took a lead role in Europe?

    And so on... but Newsnight Scotland beckons.

  10. Andrew BOD July 23, 2009 12:17 AM  

    SU

    Getting back to the main theme, I believe the UK is already in a state of partial federalism, but without a Senate (or whatever) to hold it together. If this continues, each constituent part of the UK will continue to drift apart. And this is a natural process because each part wants to do it's best for the people who live there.

    Westminster spends most of it's time legislating for England, and David Cameron will attempt to make this more effective by ensuring English-only votes on English matters. Westminster was firmly rooted in English political history long before 1707, and unlike 'neutral' seats of power in other nations of the world, e.g. DC, Canberra, etc..., it can never claim to be a neutral venue. Holyrood, Cardiff and Stormont are not interested in matters concerning the whole of the UK, so again, there is little desire for commonality of future policies, especially when there are different governments in power across the UK.

    Yes, much legislation created in Westminster is adopted in the devolved parliaments and assemblies, but this is starting to be less so as rival parties are in power across the UK.

    Calman's recommendations enacted, rightly or wrongly, will further amplify the differences, so it almost appears as if independence is a certainty in the long run. And this may be a naturally evolving process, but those who wish the union to continue may need to think seriously about a proper federal model with a neutral Senate and a balance of power across the constituent parts, or the Union may be no more.

  11. Social Democrat July 23, 2009 1:11 AM  

    Cheers SU.

    “Scotland is a constituent part of a larger nation which not only has a seat but is a permanent member of the UN Security Council with veto rights, etc. So in ceding autonomy our voice is amplified, not muzzled.”

    I am personally very uncomfortable with the concept of the UN Security Council in which an elite few, there by virtue of the size of their guns or extent of their former empires, wield a disproportionate power over the rest of the world. I hope that it is a practice that is consigned to history sooner rather than later as we move towards a more equitable and unified global politics over the coming years. I want us to be part of the world, but I don’t want us to rule it.

    Nevertheless, Britain isn’t really very big compared with nations such as Canada, Indonesia, India or Brazil. Surely in terms of population and territorial extent these nations have a greater right to be a permanent member of the Security Council than the UK or France? Perhaps we should have the EU as a permanent member to maximise inclusiveness?

    “within Britain we become part of larger bloc of 72 British seats in the European Parliament. An independent Scotland would have perhaps 13. When was the last time Finland, for example, took a lead role in Europe?”

    Scotland would have about double the seats in the EU parliament as an independent nation compared to what we have now. It’s true that the UK has a large bloc of 72 seats. However, Scotland will be able to use its extra representation to push more strongly for matters perceived to be in the Scottish interest and more importantly, much more importantly, we would be able to coalesce our votes with any number of nations to forge alliances to push Europe in certain directions on certain issues. That of course would inevitably involve pooling votes with other British MEPs. However, as we all know, MEPs tend to divide into political parties rather than nationalities in the EU parliament and I would imagine that the majority of independent Scotland’s MEPs would be members of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats or the European Greens. Finland held the presidency of Europe in 2006.

  12. Stuart Winton July 23, 2009 8:00 AM  

    A fine essay from the Doc, nicely balancing idealism and optimism with pragmatism.

  13. Indy July 23, 2009 9:16 AM  

    Smee maybe I should have said other sovereign or independent parliaments rather than national but it's splitting hairs really.

    Most countries in Europe - and in the rest of the world - are independent. Independence is the default position for modern nations - most national parliaments therefore have the powers of an independent nation. The Scottish Parliament doesn't have those powers.

    Unionists can argue that there is no need for the Scottish Parliament to have the same powers as most other national parliaments, that is in fact the core argument is it not? But an attempt to start a debate about defining what a national parliament is - that's just a distraction isn't it?

  14. sm753 July 23, 2009 10:23 AM  

    "Most countries in Europe - and in the rest of the world - are independent."

    Really? Prove it.

    Impossible to do so, because it depends on your definition of "nation" or "country".

    "Independence is the default position for modern nations"

    Ah, this old canard.

    Even if this is true (see above), why is the "default" position assumed to be the "optimum" one?

    Do you leave your version of Windows at the default settings, or do you choose your own?

  15. Indy July 23, 2009 10:47 AM  

    A point a lot of people don’t get is that an independent Scotland in Europe would actually increase the representation from Britain in Europe not decrease it. It is not so much the fact that Britain would have more combined MEPS – because as SD has pointed out the MEPs sit in political not national groups – but there would also be additional ministerial representation. That means that in areas where the UK had common interests there would be more representation not less. But of course where Scotland’s interests diverged we would be free to pursue them, as every other member state does.

  16. Scottish Unionist July 23, 2009 10:50 AM  

    I’m not sure that the Windows analogy is applicable, but point taken!

    The whole argument that political independence is the “normal” or “natural” arrangement for peoples who self-identify as nations is a non-sequitur.

    It’s also rather irresponsible rhetoric, in that it has as a corollary that unionism is “abnormal” and “unnatural”, which moral undertone can give rise to the venom we see in the cybernattery.

    A few questions for our nationalist friends:

    Should the Sioux nation, Navajo nation etc separate from the USA?

    Should the Bavarian nation (independent until 1871) split from Germany?

    Should the Breton nation (and bear in mind that Britanny was independent for over 700 years before joining France) go it alone?

    The Basque Country (Euskadi) has nation status in the Spanish constitution. So should Spain fragment?

    What about Salzburg? Should Austria cease to exist?

    What about Åland (Finland), Alsace (France), Andalusia (Spain), Catalonia (Spain), Corsica (France), Faroes (Denmark), Flanders (Belgium), Friesland (Netherlands, Galicia (Spain), Greenland (Denmark), Lapland (Finland), Navarre (Spain), Padania (Italy), Sardinia (Italy), Savoy (France), Saxony (Germany), Thuringia (Germany) and Wallonia (Belgium)? All have independence movements.

    Or if you want to sidestep the questions by replying that whether or not they “should” is up to themselves, let’s try a broader question: would it be desirable for Europe to balkanise?

  17. Scottish Unionist July 23, 2009 10:52 AM  

    Andrew BOD:

    One question for you. Do you think it inevitable that every country in which a federal model is applied (Canada, Australia, the USA etc) will at some stage fragment because their constituent legislatures enact different laws? I think not!

  18. Scottish Unionist July 23, 2009 10:57 AM  

    SD: By "lead role" I wasn't alluding to symbolic issues such as the EU presidency but to actual leadership and influence within Europe. Don't you think that Bavaria (for example) benefits from having a significant influence on Germany's 99 MEPs?

  19. Indy July 23, 2009 12:02 PM  

    Scottish Unionist the answer to all those questions is that it is up to the Sioux, the Navaho, the Bretons, the Bavarians etc. I’m not side stepping the issue, I believe in the right of self-determination.

    This is all getting away from the point anyway. Scotland – like every other country – can choose whether or not to be independent.

    Most countries have chosen to be independent.

    Those two facts should surely be accepted as givens.

    That doesn’t mean that Scotland must be independent nor am I suggesting that our current position is ‘unnatural.’

    It is however a fact that in the world we live in, most countries are independent. Let’s take that as a neutral fact and proceed from there.

    Smee asking me to ‘prove’ that most countries are independent is just daft. Prove that they are not.

  20. Scottish Unionist July 23, 2009 12:34 PM  

    I expected both the cop-out and the denial!

    Anyway, while you may not be suggesting that the United Kingdom is an “unnatural” construct, it is the only possible logical conclusion of the SNP’s insistence that independence is “natural”.

    Attempting to enumerate those regions or peoples which self-define as nations, and then to tally which of them are independent states and which exist in other forms is indeed pointless. That said, as there are only presently something in the region of 194 independent states I would suggest that it is highly unlikely that there are an even smaller number of historic nations contained within them!

    Come on, Indy! Don’t be coy. We know that the SNP is sympathetic to Canada being dismantled, for example. Alex Salmond has called Parti Québécois the SNP’s “parti frère” (“brother party”). On this SNP webpage Ian Hudghton refers to “more and more small countries, such as Catalonia, Montenegro and my own Scotland seek[ing] to reassert our right to independence”. At EU level, the SNP is part of the EFA, which stands for “the creation of a European union of free peoples based on the principle of subsidiarity who believe in solidarity with each other and other peoples of the world”.

  21. Indy July 23, 2009 12:56 PM  

    The SNP usually describes independence as 'normal' rather than 'natural'. The normal powers of an independent parliament etc. Statistically that is the case. It would indeed be pointless to go through a list of non-independent countries in the world because they would be very much fewer than 194.

    As for your other points - you are going round in circles. The SNP certainly has a good relationship with the Parti Québécois but that does not mean that we are plotting to dismantle Canada! It is for the people of Quebec to decide their own future just as it is for the people of Scotland to decide ours.

    As for the EFA statement - is there anything in it with which you disagree?

  22. sm753 July 23, 2009 1:25 PM  

    Indy

    "It is however a fact that in the world we live in, most countries are independent. Let’s take that as a neutral fact and proceed from there."

    No, let's not, because it isn't one.

    (Oh and I note, by the way, your slide away from "nation" to "country". Tut tut.)

    There is no generally accepted definition of "country" or "nation".

    Both terms exist in a continuum which has the legally recognised concept of the "state" at one end of it, but at the other end blurs into regions, provinces, sub-state jurisdictions (confusingly often called "States") etc etc with no clear dividing lines.

    It is, therefore, impossible to decide the proposition "Most countries / nations are independent."

    You made the claim, so you're the one who has to prove it.

  23. sm753 July 23, 2009 1:36 PM  

    By way of illustration:

    Nats often argue that Scotland has fewer local powers than US states, German Laender, etc etc.

    But Scotland is a country.

    So, logically, those entities must also be countries.

    So our list of "non-independent countries" starts with:

    50 US States
    13 Canadian provinces and territories
    8 Australian states and territories
    16 German Laender
    17 Spanish autonomous communities
    28 Indian states
    13 Malaysian states
    81 Russian oblasts, republics, krais and okrugs

    That's well past 194 - can I stop now?

  24. LC July 23, 2009 3:45 PM  

    Indy,

    "The SNP usually describes independence as 'normal' rather than 'natural'. The normal powers of an independent parliament etc. Statistically that is the case. "

    There is no such thing as a normal parliament, and even if there was to appeal to it simply because it is 'normal' would simply be an is/ought fallacy.

    To examine 'parliaments' out there - 'parliament' is only a name. The Scottish Parliament could just as easily have been called the Scottish Assembly, and it is only by the drawing room discussions of a few Labour politicians that it wasn't. If you want to take legislative bodies as a whole - the vast majority of them in the world are local councils, devolved bodies, federal units, supernational ones and so forth rather than simply national, sovereign legislatures.

    Even to consider 'Parliament' - I certainly cannot be arsed counting, but the number of countries who call their national legislatures a 'parliament' (or a clear translation thereof) are at least almost evened, if not exceeded, but the number of sub-national and international legislatures called parliaments: the subnational parliaments of Spain, Belgium, Australia, the Nordic countries and so forth mount up.

    "It would indeed be pointless to go through a list of non-independent countries in the world because they would be very much fewer than 194."

    Few countries of any significant size can be said to be culturally homogeneous. In the United States alone, there are literally hundreds of federally recognised tribal governments: http://www.usa.gov/Government/Tribal_Sites/index.shtml - across the world there are hundreds of entities which could be called nations, and this is true of virtually all parts of the world from China to Europe to Africa.

  25. Andrew BOD July 23, 2009 9:04 PM  

    SU

    In answer to your question, it's unlikely that Canada, the US or Australia will fragment. As I have explained, they each have a federal government holding the states/provinces together. There is no ambiguity about those federal seats of power, as they are in effect, neutral enclaves - Washington DC, Ottawa/Gatineaux NCR, and Canberra ACT. It's no accident that they were designed in that way. Very unlike Westminster, which legislates on UK reserved matters, but which also doubles up as England's comprehensive Legislature. By design, this is obviously flawed and is one of the reasons the UK will drift apart.

  26. Scottish Unionist July 23, 2009 9:30 PM  

    Neutral enclaves?! With a demilitarised buffer zone? Be serious.

  27. Andrew BOD July 24, 2009 12:17 AM  

    OK SU, let me try once again. You obviously got the bit about federal government being different from Westminster?? The locations of these federal governments are, by design, in a neutral 'location'. They are not in Sydney, New York, or Toronto :~)

  28. sm753 July 24, 2009 10:20 AM  

    Andrew:

    Madrid

    Berlin

    Moscow

  29. Scottish Unionist July 24, 2009 10:59 AM  

    Indy:

    “Independence is the natural state for nations like our own.”

    From http://www.snp.org/manifesto09

    Re. the EFA statement, yes of course I disagree with it. The whole notion of “free peoples” is archaic, isolationist drivel.

  30. Scottish Unionist July 24, 2009 11:08 AM  

    Andrew:

    Are you seriously arguing that
    a federal Britain would only be sustainable if the federal parliament wasn't located in England? Why do you see such symbolism as being so important?

  31. Indy July 24, 2009 11:10 AM  

    The fact that you are all deperately trying to argue that there are loads of countries/nations etc in the world which are not independent when that is patently nonsense kind of proves my point!

    LC/Smee yes the Scottish Parliament could just as easily have been called the Scottish Assembly but it would still make national laws which apply across the whole of Scotland. Local authorities or syb-national bodies don't make national laws.

    If you want however to make the point that under devolution the Scottish Parliament is not actually a national parliament but a sub-national legislature on a par with local authorities then be my guest. That can only help my argument that the Scottish Parliament under current arrangements does not have equality with the national parliaments of other modern nations because it does not have the same powers or authority.

    The inability of the unionist posters here to even address never mind defend that reality - but instead to launch a diversionary argument about what a parliament/nation/country really is - is clear evidence that you do not want to deal with the issue. I am not surprised but you should at least make the attempt.

  32. Scottish Unionist July 24, 2009 11:27 AM  

    Indy

    The discussion of national identity isn't in the least diversionary. It's actually key to the whole debate.

    Do you believe that the physical territory of the world partitions cleanly, like a jigsaw, into nations?

    Or can you accept that actually nations can overlap, be nested within other nations, that people can belong to more than one nation, and so on?

  33. LC July 24, 2009 12:42 PM  

    Indy,

    "The fact that you are all deperately trying to argue that there are loads of countries/nations etc in the world which are not independent when that is patently nonsense kind of proves my point!"

    Of course there are loads. If you think Scotland is remotely unusual in the world, then you simply don't get out much.

    "If you want however to make the point that under devolution the Scottish Parliament is not actually a national parliament but a sub-national legislature on a par with local authorities then be my guest. That can only help my argument that the Scottish Parliament under current arrangements does not have equality with the national parliaments of other modern nations because it does not have the same powers or authority."

    You are simply mixing the the use of 'national' to refer to 'of a state' with 'national' meaning 'of a nation'. It does not have equality with the legislatures of sovereign states because Scotland is not a sovereign state - it's that simple.

    "The inability of the unionist posters here to even address never mind defend that reality - but instead to launch a diversionary argument about what a parliament/nation/country really is - is clear evidence that you do not want to deal with the issue. I am not surprised but you should at least make the attempt."

    You are the one who made the argument in the first place. When you backpeddled and said that perhaps you should have said 'sovereign or independent parliaments rather than national' - well then your assertion would simply have failed, because Scotland is not a sovereign or independent parliament.

    We've demonstrated that Scotland's position is not remotely abnormal, that many if not most parliaments are sub-national like Scotland's, that most countries contain cultural and national subdivisions. So could you please clarify what points, if any, are actually still in contention...

  34. Scottish Unionist July 24, 2009 12:59 PM  

    LC:

    Thanks for your interesting posts, and not least because in respect of this thread at least, I've basically given up on Indy!

    I almost entirely agree with you, but would perhaps raise one small caveat - your reference to Scotland not being "remotely unusual".

    Actually, I think our position is quite unusual. We haven't merely been absorbed within a larger homogeneous whole. Scotland remains distinctive: both culturally and in terms of certain key institutions.

    Jim Murphy recently said something along the lines that the Union allows Scotland to be Scotland, and he's right. The same, perhaps unfortunately, cannot be said of most other sub-state nations.

  35. Indy July 24, 2009 2:19 PM  

    Scottish Unionist your obsession with issues of identity can blind you to the issues that actually underpin the independence debate. Yes nations can overlap, be nested within other nations, people can belong to more than one nation, and so on.

    So what?

    Address the issues. Why should Westminster, rather than the Scottish Parliament, have control over whether Trident is located in Scotland. Why should Westminster. rather than the Scottish Parliament, decide on tax, benefits and pensions in Scotland rather than the Scottish Parliament. Why should Westminster decide where Scottish soldiers are deployed rather than the Scottish Parliament. Why should Westminster decide whether there will be a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty in Scotland rather than the Scottish Parliament. And so on.

    Explain to me why it is better that the Scottish Parliament - unlike, say, the parliaments of Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Austria etc, - cannot take those kinds of decisions.

    Don't give me a lot of guff about Scotland being like one of the US states, Russian oblasts or German Lander. Address the choices that face Scotland - which do not include becoming part of the USA, Russia or Germany.

    LC 'The Scottish Parliament does not have equality with the legislatures of sovereign states because Scotland is not a sovereign state - it's that simple.'

    Yep - spot on. That is the difference. Following the logic displayed here the next step should be for you to say that actually there are lots of states that aren't sovereign so it is just silly to bother about whether Scotland is.

  36. Scottish Unionist July 24, 2009 2:41 PM  

    “your obsession”

    Yawn.

    “Yes nations can overlap, be nested within other nations, people can belong to more than one nation, and so on.”

    Well, that's a step forward. If only the SNP acknowledged that simple fact. A bizarre statement by Roseanna Cunningham, quoted on their website, actually denies that Britain is even a nation.

    “Why should Westminster, rather than the Scottish Parliament, have control over...”

    One word: democracy. Because most people in Scotland don't agree with the SNP's obsession (!) with separation.

  37. sm753 July 24, 2009 4:11 PM  

    Address the issues. Why should Washington, rather than the the US State assemblies, have control over whether Trident is located in a State. Why should Washington. rather than the the US State assemblies, decide on tax, benefits and pensions in States rather than the the US State assemblies. Why should Washington decide where US soldiers are deployed rather than the the US State assemblies. Why should Washington decide whether there will be a referenda on international Treaties rather than the the US State assemblies. And so on.

    Explain to me why it is any sort of problem that the the US State assemblies - unlike, say, the parliaments of Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Austria etc, - cannot take those kinds of decisions.

    Why shouldn't I “give you a lot of guff” about Scotland being like one of the US states, Russian oblasts or German Laender? It is. I am addressing the choices that face Scotland, and no-one is suggesting becoming part of the USA, Russia or Germany.

    Now, my list of “non-independent” countries was obviously a bit frivolous.

    But not entirely.

    The serious point I was making that the number of non-independent nations / countries (and which are not colonies) is certainly a lot larger than you think.

    We can start with 2 or 3 German Laender, 4 or 5 Spanish communities, Nunavut in Canada, the 21 Russian republics (set up specifically on an ethnic-national basis). A few Indian states, the Malaysian ones (they all still have kings, don't they?) - and we haven't even got round to Africa.

    It all comes back to the fact that since one cannot generally define “nation” or “country”, it is meaningless to say “it is normal for countries to be independent”.

  38. The Aberdonian July 24, 2009 4:20 PM  

    Concerning this stuff about federal capitals, I remember reading some book produced in 1980 or so called "Scotland 2000" or "Scotland 1999". I cannot remember the year, but it was about Scotland's future post 1979 and all that.

    I remember reading that one young Labourite also advocated a "neutral capital" as London was getting too big for its boots. He advocated a new UK capital to be constructed near London. Or if that was too expensive then to use a nearby new town - he advocated Milton Keynes!

    Campbell Christie believed this then. I am sure he does not now though!

    Also remember reading somewhere that the Economist no less advocated the UK capital to be relocated to York for much the same reasons. And of course York is sort of in the middle of Britain.

    To be honest, whilst I find the notion of a federal UK very interesting, the UK's record on constitutional reform is frankly appalling and it would only come around with Establishment kicking and screaming into accepting it.

    As Andrew Marr put it in his tome "A Battle for Scotland", Scotland is a country/nation because it considers itself one.

    To the best of my knowledge none of the provinces except Quebec considers themselves a nation. In Australia, despite bridling by Queensland and WA early last century, the individual states do not consider themselves a country.

    I think maybe the debate is confusing and even muddying the division between nationalism and regionalism. For example the Ticinise in Switzerland consider themselves thoroughly Swiss but still seek a better deal within Switzerland through the Ticinise League.

    Of maybe more relevance is the recentlyish independent country of Croatia which has strong regionalist parties in Dalmatia, Istria (where the demand is more autonomy and Italian to be recognised as an equal language with Croat), Kraverner Region and Slavonia (which contends that Zagreb has done little to help the region ruined by the Civil War).

  39. Indy July 24, 2009 4:26 PM  

    More diversionary tactics.

    It's amazing not one of you is actually prepared to answer a straight question.

    Yes SU at the moment most people in Scotland vote for parties which want Westminster to control defence. But that can change and is changing.

    If you want to stop independence happening you are going to have to come up with some REASONS, not simply state that the democratic will of the people should prevail. We all agree on that. But the democratic will of the people is subject to change and since you cannot say why you think Westminster should have sovereignty over Scotland you are not going to persuade many people that you are right.

    Smee - same point to you. Its well seeing you are an internet activist and not a real one. If a real person asked you why Westminster should have the power to situate nuclear weapons in Scotland even when the Scottish Parliament has voted against it and you replied with a lecture about the United States, Malaysia and the German Lander you would very quickly lose their interest and then their vote.

  40. LC July 24, 2009 4:58 PM  

    Aberdonian,

    "As Andrew Marr put it in his tome "A Battle for Scotland", Scotland is a country/nation because it considers itself one."

    I must say I struggle with that concept. I am Scottish, British, European with other local identities and indeed identities which are not geographical. I have no urge to label them or to try and inflate one as being more important than the other.

    The idea behind Marr’s point seems to be that identity itself doesn't make a nation, but 'national identity' - in which one identifies their attachment to an entity as national in nature - does. In essence, this makes the definition circular and the term somewhat meaningless: if a nation has no other attributes than being called and considered a nation, what value has the term at all?

    Indy,

    I don't agree with you on 'diversionary tactics' - I, for one, am perfectly willing to be as open, frank and honest with you as possible. I have nothing to hide politically and have no hidden interests or agenda. There's really no point in my diverting you from anything.

    "If you want to stop independence happening you are going to have to come up with some REASONS, not simply state that the democratic will of the people should prevail."

    You're quite right - but what we must not do is argue the constitution based on circumstance or political issues - we who oppose nationalism must oppose it on principle rather than simply suggest the nationalists' predictions and facts are wrong.

    For one, to do otherwise looks ridiculous. We have seen nationalists suggest that Westminster suddenly lacks authority due to a (relatively minor) expenses scandal and that it is somehow an argument against the United Kingdom’s existence. To paraphrase Clive James from last night's Question Time - when your floor gets dirty, you don't demolish the house - you clean up the mess.

  41. sm753 July 24, 2009 5:04 PM  

    "why Westminster should have the power to situate nuclear weapons in Scotland even when the Scottish Parliament"

    ...which was and is as pathetic and irrelevant as all those "nuclear-free zones" set up by lefty councils in the 80s.

    Not in its remit. Vote therefore pointless and waste of time and money.

    Which is something that (most) people knew and understood when they voted to set the thing up, and continue to know and understand at elections. Which is why Westminster and Holyrood voting patterns are different.

    Simple.

  42. Scottish Unionist July 24, 2009 5:07 PM  

    Re: "...why Westminster should have the power to situate nuclear weapons in Scotland even when the Scottish Parliament has voted against it..."

    Because defence decisions are reserved to UK level!

    ICM poll for BBC, June 2009:

    "Who do you think should make most of the important decisions for Scotland about defence and foreign affairs, the Scottish Government in Edinburgh or the UK Government at Westminster?"

    Scottish government in Edinburgh: 35%
    UK government at Westminster: 63%
    Don't know: 2%

    The onus is on you to explain why you think shared defence policy isn't in everyone's overall interests.

  43. Indy July 24, 2009 6:16 PM  

    LC if you believe that you do not have to argue the constitution based on circumstance or political issues but on principle then you will lose because people vote and decide what they want from government based on circumstances and political issues as much as on principles.

    Smee - if anything a worse answer than your first. You haven't just lost that vote now you have alienated the voter for life by being so patronising.

    SU - again you avoid the question. We all know defence is reserved. The question is why should it be? Your answer is that defence is reserved because it is reserved.

    You are quite correct that the onus is on the SNP to explain why we believe the Scottish Parliament should control defence and if that is going to be the counter-argument it's a battle that can be easily won.

  44. Andrew BOD July 24, 2009 8:23 PM  

    SU

    If you don't read my whole post, then I'm not going to defend bits of it taken out of context.

    The UK is definitely drifting apart and will continue to do so until Westminster is reformed, the voting system is changed, and even then there may still be a struggle from the constituent countries / nations / provinces / states / parts, for a greater degree of separateness. A federal model might work but there is definitely no stomach for this in England and within the UK establishment.

    LC

    Not only is the floor dirty, the house is riddled with dry rot.

  45. Scottish Unionist July 24, 2009 11:51 PM  

    Andrew:

    I was unaware of having taken anything out of context. But your "drifting apart" claim is unfounded. You may think you sense such a movement, but polls suggest no such feeling.

    LC:

    A couple of quotes which you might find interesting.

    "The simplest statement that can be made about a nation is that it is a body of people who feel that they are a nation; and it may be that when all the fine spun analysis is concluded, this will be the ultimate statement as well." - From Empire to Nation; the Rise to Self-Assertion of Asian and African Peoples, Rupert Emerson, Beacon Press, 1966.

    "All that I can find to say is that a nation exists when a significant number of people in a community consider themselves to form a nation, or behave as if they formed one. It is not necessary that the whole of the population should so feel, or so behave, and it is not possible to lay down dogmatically a minimum percentage of a population which must be so affected. When a significant group holds this belief, it possesses 'national consciousness'." - Nations and States: An Inquiry into the Origins of Nations and the Politics of Nationalism, Hugh Seton-Watson, Methuen, 1977.

  46. sm753 July 25, 2009 8:46 AM  

    Indy

    "Smee - if anything a worse answer than your first. You haven't just lost that vote now you have alienated the voter for life by being so patronising."

    Ah, emotion clouds the issue again.

    From the top:

    what are the *objective* differences between Scotland and, say, Wales, Catalonia, and Bavaria which make it "natural" for Scotland to be a state and them not to be?

  47. wildgoose July 25, 2009 10:11 AM  

    Nice article. But then I would say that because the Campaign for an English Parliament is explicitly campaigning for an English Parliament and implicitly thereby creating a federal United Kingdom - preferably with a new Union Parliament outside London, perhaps somewhere like Liverpool.

    Does this mean you are finally dropping your opposition to an English Parliament and the recognition that there is an English Nation? Or are you going to continue with your Scottish Imperialist view that England must be broken up into artificial EU regions whilst Scotland retains its privileged preeminent position within a UK run by and for what amounts to a Scottish Raj?

    Because down here in (Yorkshire) England we have an old saying: "Fine words butter no parsnips".

  48. Scottish Unionist July 25, 2009 10:24 AM  

    Wildgoose:

    Good morning. Were those questions for Duncan or me?

  49. wildgoose July 26, 2009 1:49 PM  

    They were meant for you seeing as I remember that you have opposed an English Parliament in the past whilst simultaneously supporting the existence of a Scottish Parliament - in other words desiring a "Union" in which Scotland's inhabitants have a privileged position rather than one in which all its citizens are equal.

  50. Scottish Unionist July 26, 2009 4:18 PM  

    I think perhaps your memory may not be entirely accurate. I have always acknowledged English nationhood and would have no in principle objection to an English parliament, if that was felt to be the best way to resolve the perceived lopsidedness in the current devolution system. That said, regional assemblies always seemed to me to offer rather more potential for genuinely local accountability.

  51. Andrew BOD July 26, 2009 9:19 PM  

    Wildgoose

    I'm glad someone else has recognised the need for an English Parliament. I mean we have one already but it's being used for reserved UK affairs as well. Not really fit for purpose. My only issue is that most of England may never share your view.

    SU, I'm also glad that you have recognised a "perceived lopsidedness" in the devolution system.

  52. wildgoose July 27, 2009 7:55 AM  

    We English weren't given a choice about Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Devolution, it was considered none of our business. The precedent has been set - English Devolution is England's business.

    Regional Assemblies are wholly alien to the tradition of English Government which (historically) has preferred strong local government. The proposed "Regional" Assemblies have aimed to take even more powers away from local government rather than devolve powers from Central Government. So it's not surprising that North East England, the only area given a vote, rejected the proposals by a whopping 84% - only to have an unelected Regional Authority imposed instead.

    After 1998 the only acceptable form of English Devolution is an English Parliament with the same powers as Scotland's Parliament.

    The longer the current situation continues, the more that people in England will decide that the Union is a burden not worth having. The SNP know this, they are deliberately playing to an English audience as well. Insisting that second-class citizenship for the English is necessary for the Union to survive is just ensuring that the Union won't survive.

    David ("proud Scottish blood in his veins") Cameron's rhetoric is "better an imperfect Union than a perfect Divorce".

    But telling people in England that their interests and those of their children, families and friends must be sacrificed in order to retain a Union with people not subject to the same strictures is actually a recipe for a quickie Divorce!

    Hence my use of "so-called" Unionists.

  53. mikecarr6 July 30, 2009 4:59 AM  

    I have written to K Clake asking about an English Parliament. The Tories want to keep Westminster, but on bill concerning England, on the second reading only English MP's can talk, or vote.

    I aksed what do the other MP's do then? As they are getting the same wage for less work. How about Peers, do only English peers vote on n English bill, when this gets to the Upper Chamber?

    No answer..On another point when Scotland has it's referendum in 2010, why do my English Tax payer pounds have to be used to advertise the campaign? Even to promote (I assume ) a 'No' vote. Yet again we in England have taxation without representation.

  54. David August 1, 2009 4:33 PM  

    It is hardly a surpise that someone who proclaims a lack of any national identity cannot come up with anything other than a rambling woolliness of what might be Scotlands constitutional makeup.

    National identity is not just how you see yourself but how you are labelled by others and how you are officially classified. Eg. Whether you or I like it or not we are labeled as an EU citizen and a British national.

    The author also appears to have many misconceptions. One misconception here is that if you feel Scottish then you are likely not to want a UK state. This is false. Most people born in Scotland feel Scottish outright in a national sense or at least Scottish and British in a national sense. This has been true for decades and yet only recently has there also emerged a stronger desire for self determination. Many Labour supporters in Scotland consider themselves Scottish but want to be part of the UK State for various reasons.

    Elsewhere, the poster muddles independence and sovereignty. Is anyone arguing that political states are not interdependent? Scotland however has very little say on anything at a national level and cannot even interact directly with most international bodies.

    The poster also seems to think that Europe is one entity, just different to Westminster in Scale. Clearly Europe is a multiplicity of organisations and bodies to which Scotland could opt to take part in and if so have to renegotiate our position. Existing UK ratified treaties on our behalf would be the starting point. There is nothing unclear about this minus the FUD.

    Except Scotland has no sovereignty except in devolved areas and even here the framework is obfuscated. Nobody knows Scotlands true fiscal position and instead we run on a budget based on a meaningless percentage of population. We are at the whim of Westminster control (eg. Our national boundaries being redefined at the drop of a Westminster hat. Was anyone in Scotland consulted? How can Scotland be re sized by another entity without our approval? Well, because they can, obviously.)

    Did the author even consider how a federal Britain could or should be created? Instead of pussyfooting around your muddled sense of national identity (or not) in a federated Britain the obvious place to start is Accountability, transparency and responsibility for federal parts. Based on this a federated area can pay proportionally into common state services. eg. Defense.

    Do we all pay taxes to Europe at a rate they set and then the UK gets back a budget based on UK population? Laughable isn't it?

    Lastly the poster mentions how the UK state is good sized structure for National emergencies such as Foot and Mouth. You mean like the one we just where the Scottish hill farmers got no compensation from the DEFRA initiated outbreak. Yes, it seems to be working exactly as intended.
    Actually I agree that UK wide bodies should exist, but someone needs to be representing our interests in how UK bodies are run. Mutual interest is nonexistent without partnership, consensus and mutual respect.