14 June 2009

The case for Scottish independence

Posted by Scottish Unionist at 7:03 PM. There are 37 comments.

37 comments
  1. Wardog June 14, 2009 8:17 PM  
    This comment has been removed by the author.
  2. Scottish Unionist June 14, 2009 8:22 PM  

    The only “powerful case” he makes is that his opinions are rooted in bitterness.

    “Flower of Scotland... that's the Scottish national anthem... that jist shows you how we feel towards the English... I've nae grudge against English people...”

    Aye, right!

  3. Wardog June 14, 2009 8:30 PM  
    This comment has been removed by the author.
  4. Jim Baxter June 14, 2009 8:49 PM  

    It was Roy williamson of 'The Corries' who wrote 'Flower of Scotland', not Robin Hall and Jimmy McGregor.

    Tiresome dirge that it is.

  5. Scottish Unionist June 14, 2009 8:49 PM  

    Give over; by the same token you misquoted yourself. He appealed to history to claim that the English would be prepared to unleash “genocide” against Scotland and you described his “case” as “powerful”.

  6. DG June 14, 2009 9:57 PM  

    Ah, again Wardog makes an entertaining case of defending the indefensible.

    Anyway, Auld Jock was quite amusing really. Seems to me there's a fair possibility that it might be satirical.

  7. Andrew BOD June 15, 2009 12:02 AM  

    SU

    This is a tad low.

    Although Jock is no intellectual, he speaks as much sense as revered historian Dr Starkey. And however misguided some of his remarks are, at least this YouTube clip is from the heart. Could the same be said about Gordon Brown's?

    Toodle-oo-fur-noo.

  8. Wardog June 15, 2009 1:03 AM  
    This comment has been removed by the author.
  9. Scottish Unionist June 15, 2009 7:46 AM  

    “This is a tad low.”

    Tell that to Alex Massie and Tom Harris.

    “...at least this YouTube clip is from the heart.”

    The same could be said of most unhinged diatribes.

    “Seems to me there's a fair possibility that it might be satirical.”

    That occurred to me, but his numerous other videos demonstrate that it’s genuine – as indeed are the comments about “how much we hate the English” and how “you're never a true Scot” unless you support separation.

    “When can expect your views on Calman? ”

    I believe the report is to be published in about an hour and a quarter. I doubt that I’ll make any comment for a day or two.

  10. Colin June 15, 2009 9:59 AM  

    Alex Massie seems to think you spell "no" with an apostrophe.

  11. Indy June 15, 2009 10:34 AM  

    Undoubtably satirical.

    But unionists are not famed for their humour.

    Personally I prefer Renton's rant in Trainspotting.

  12. Scottish Unionist June 15, 2009 11:48 AM  

    “Alex Massie seems to think you spell "no" with an apostrophe.”

    No’ = not. Are you condemning him for not being “Scottish enough”?

    “Undoubtably satirical.”

    Sure. And the free range cybernats are “on the fringes”. Ahem!

    “But unionists are not famed for their humour.”

    Revealing of your mindset. You speak as though you see us as a different species.

  13. Indy June 15, 2009 12:36 PM  

    I should probably have said cyber-unionists have no humour.

    I don't think you'll find many arguments against that!

  14. Colin June 15, 2009 12:43 PM  

    No, I was "condemning" him for poor spelling.

  15. Scottish Unionist June 15, 2009 12:57 PM  

    No humour, Indy? Didn't you watch the video?

  16. Wardog June 15, 2009 1:08 PM  
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  17. Scottish Unionist June 15, 2009 3:53 PM  

    His age has nothing to do with it. Believe me: the juvenile cybernattery on Bebo is far more overtly and viciously anti-English.

  18. sm753 June 15, 2009 4:03 PM  

    "AM2, Massie & Tom Harris, like public school toffs sneering and laughing at an old man.... oh but hold on a minute, they are public school toffs"

    Muttley

    I have no idea about AM2 and Mr Massie, but Tom Harris appears to have been educated the distinctly state-run Garnock Academy.

    http://www.garnockacademy.org/formerpupils/Former%20Pupils.html

    Have you ever heard of these things called "facts"?

  19. Wardog June 15, 2009 5:15 PM  
    This comment has been removed by the author.
  20. Scottish Unionist June 15, 2009 5:24 PM  

    Wardog: Kindly take your vindictiveness and contrived accusations elsewhere. I've had enough.

  21. Wardog June 15, 2009 5:41 PM  
    This comment has been removed by the author.
  22. Scottish Unionist June 15, 2009 5:58 PM  

    You're off-topic. Away and spam somebody else's blog. My patience has expired.

  23. Wardog June 15, 2009 5:59 PM  
    This comment has been removed by the author.
  24. Scottish Unionist June 15, 2009 6:27 PM  

    As I write this, Jock has posted no less than 579 YouTube videos. He must virtually live online!

    You are ubiquitous, night and day, feverishly hammering away on this and other non-nationalist blogs, trying desperately to undermine and reduce the possible impact of various bloggers who don't slavishly toe your party line.

    You also think that the “case” (chuckle) which Jock presents is “powerful”. Is there anything you'd like to get off your chest? ;-)

  25. AMW June 15, 2009 10:29 PM  

    I cant understand what he is wheezing but im sure i could find a BNP video on youtube and post it on my blog and label it (The Case for the Unitied Kingdom) Get my point..?

  26. Andrew BOD June 16, 2009 12:09 AM  

    SU

    What else is there to say about Jock? As an exercise in belittlement you're top-of-the-class. But it's hardly a topic for serious discussion. As you said yourself: "unhinged diatribe". And it's hardly surprising that it's on YouTube.

    Although 'off-topic", Calman is much more interesting, meaningful, and actually topical.

  27. Scottish Unionist June 16, 2009 7:29 PM  

    AMW:

    No, I don't get your point. The BNP is a repulsive UK Nationalist party. That doesn't make them “unionist” in any sense I would recognise.

    Andrew BOD:

    I'm not seeking to belittle anyone. The post was about how even “civic” nationalism can, and all too often does, mutate into something ugly at street level.

    It's all in the eye of the beholder. While you at least recognise the video as an “unhinged diatribe”, Wardog thinks that it represents a “a powerful republican case for independence”.

  28. Observer June 16, 2009 8:48 PM  

    Goodness me there seems a fair amount of bluster around someone who appears to be Scotland's answer to Alf Garnett.

    I really think you are taking this too seriously.

  29. weedunks June 16, 2009 9:39 PM  

    Where does this myth come from that there's 'nae Scottish history' in Scottish schools? Certainly not my experience in the 90's and early 00's. Maybe in Jock's time though, eh?

  30. AMW June 17, 2009 12:04 AM  

    SU AMW:

    No, I don't get your point. The BNP is a repulsive UK Nationalist party. That doesn't make them “unionist” in any sense I would recognise.
    ...........

    Yes the BNP say they are a nationalist party but within the UK they are a Unionist party and they oppose Scottish independence.

    Any party in the UK which opposes Scottish independence is a unionist party, it realy is that simple and i would say the BNP are one of the worse unionist parties about. Thank god we dont have any Nats supporting scum like the BNP, they are a Unionists problem. You can keep them thanks...

  31. Indy June 17, 2009 10:15 AM  

    Nail on head AMW. That's the problem with partitioning parties on a nationalist/unionist basis. Unionists like to claim that every vote for a party which supports the Union is a vote against independence and therefore for the Union. That includes the BNP then.

    The BNP are unionists - there is no doubt about that - they support the UK, the Union, the British state (call it what you will) and they are against Scottish and Welsh independence and against a united Ireland.

    It is as valid for Scottish, Welsh or Irish nationalists to say therefore that the BNP represents one facet of unionism as it is for SU to use Old Jock to illustrate how 'even “civic” nationalism can, and all too often does, mutate into something ugly at street level.'

    You are hoist by your own petard SU.

    Let me make it clear - I don't for a second associate mainstream unionism with the BNP. Equally I don't associate nutty cyber-bloggers with the SNP.

    But you do, Scottish Unionist, so it's time either to stop doing that or accept the association of unionism with the BNP.

  32. Scottish Unionist June 17, 2009 1:02 PM  

    "You are hoist by your own petard SU."

    In your dreams.

    "Equally I don't associate nutty cyber-bloggers with the SNP."

    You don't associate Wardog with the SNP?! A tad naive?

    "The BNP are unionists"

    Wrong. They're British nationalists. No comparison.

  33. AMW June 17, 2009 8:37 PM  

    Indy...

    Great comment and agreed on everything you have written.

    I like this bit and it has my full approval.
    ...

    " It is as valid for Scottish, Welsh or Irish nationalists to say therefore that the BNP represents one facet of unionism as it is for SU to use Old Jock to illustrate how 'even “civic” nationalism can, and all too often does, mutate into something ugly at street level.'

    You are hoist by your own petard SU.
    .............

    Never a truer word written.

    Also..

    "Let me make it clear - I don't for a second associate mainstream unionism with the BNP. Equally I don't associate nutty cyber-bloggers with the SNP.

    But you do, Scottish Unionist, so it's time either to stop doing that or accept the association of unionism with the BNP."
    .........

    I cant believe you have written that coz that is the Crux of SU,s problem. He labels or tries to tarnish the SNP (The Party) with silly comments not on blogs but with those who post on forums. For all we ken it could be Unionists posting stuff as bait.
    ........

    SU, if you can vent anger at the extreme nationalists and label them with the SNP then i am well within my rights to tarnish the BNP with extreme unionism.

    In fact, some of the extreme British Unionists hounded out poor Romanian families in Belfast and shouted racists remarks at them.

    Oh dear all very extreme but not a Nat in sight.

    I rest my case...Amen..!!!

  34. DG June 22, 2009 12:20 AM  

    It's a matter of definition. Few British unionists are British nationalists.

    To take AMW's example: most of the 'Unionists' in Northern Ireland are little more than Orange Nationalists in a Paisleyite vein.

  35. Indy June 22, 2009 10:39 AM  

    But what is an orange nationalist DG?

    A unionist, surely.

    Their whole raison d'etre is that they wish to be British citizens and not Irish. They wish to preserve the Union therefore they are unionists.

    Unless you are going to define unionism as something that actually has nothing to do with preserving the unity of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? In that case what is a unionist?

  36. Scottish Unionist June 23, 2009 2:05 PM  

    Re: "British citizens and not Irish"

    When someone becomes a grandfather, do they stop being a father?

    Why do you view matters of identity so monochromatically?

  37. - July 4, 2009 4:12 PM  

    Indy,

    To respond to your question, my reference to 'Orange Nationalists' was to those in Northern Ireland who are primarily Northern Irish nationalists. The likes of Ian Paisley, whilst British, are so in the same fashion that those who framed Rhodesia's UDI were: they have very little time for the UK and no wish to meaningfully engage in its politics.

    When the possibility of normalising the abortion laws across the UK arose, you only had to listen to the nationalist cries of 'but we're different!' emanating from DUP HQ to get a sense of that.

    There are reasonable Unionists in the political structure of Northern Ireland, but a great deal - perhaps even a majority - are simply nationalists who want nothing to do with Ireland and as little to do with Britain as is possible.

    Regards,
    DG

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