Billy Connolly, speaking in 1999 about the SNP:It's entirely their fault, this new racism in Scotland, this anti-Englishness. It was a music-hall joke before - you know, like Yorkshire v Lancashire or Glasgow v Edinburgh. But there's a viciousness to it now that I really loathe and it is their fault entirely.Or has the internet more to answer for? Discuss.
1999 Am? Perhaps a more recent quote would be worth discussing.
Fair enough, Conan. Here's George Foulkes. Is that what you were angling for?
“I'm not suggesting for a second that the SNP are racist, or indeed, anti-English.”
Discuss.
“I'm not suggesting for a second that the SNP are racist, or indeed, anti-English.”
I agree with Foulkes for once;-)
Pro-Scottish is not anti-English.
Fine. But does Billy Connolly have a point when he refers to "new racism" and observes a "viciousness" to the anti-Englishness which didn't previously exist to the same extent?
And, laying aside your party allegiance, could or should the SNP do more to counter anti-Englishness? Would it be in their interests to do so?
What do Billy Connolly and George Foulkes have in common?
Both are figures of fun, comedians who have made a living out of frivolous exaggeration and spurious comparisons.
One plays the banjo badly to passers by, and other badly banjoes passers by.
I think when Andrew Wilson of the SNP stated he'd be supporting England in the World Cup he (and the party) got a boost from it and a lot of credit.
When Jack McConnell said he would be supporting Trinidad & Tobago against England he just looked silly.
So yes, there is something to gain from the SNP being pro-English (and I think, largely speaking, they are)
There will always be Scottish bampots who hate England for no apparent reason, and yes some of these bampots may even end up in the SNP but thankfully only at the very fringes.
So the SNP have their mad people but so do other parties, Labour have Lord Foulkes for example.
But having an open-thread discussing people who are "anti-English" is a bit like discussing the BNP and consequently raising their profile.
For that reason, I wonder what exactly the point of your blog post it?
Agree a bit with Jeff. Also, you just have to look at the birthplaces of no less than 7 of the SNP's MSPs to see that the SNP is a party of inclusiveness - they were born south of the border.
I'll agree with you about the viciousness - apparent during the 2006 FIFA World Cup when there were a number of racially motivated attacks. However, I don't think, as Billy Connolly does, that the SNP are to blame for this. They have always hastily called such behaviour for what it is - a bunch of idiotic, racist idiots (its early - I can't think of other words at the moment) behaving like idiots.
And I think you know that when Foulkes says “I'm not suggesting for a second that the SNP are racist, or indeed, anti-English" that by putting the SNP & racist in the same sentence he is trying to make the connection.
Thanks for the comment, Jeff.
1. I was stridently critical of Jack McConnell’s anyone-but-England posturing. It seemed to pander to, rather than challenge anti-Englishness.
But let’s get some perspective. It pales into relative insignificance when compared to Kenny MacAskill’s remark that “the great Satan has been slain” when England lost to Sweden in the Euro 2000 qualifiers.
And then we have nationalist rhetoric such as Alex Salmond’s comment that “while Bulldog Brown wants to forcefeed Britishness from on high, Lapdog McConnell struggles to keep Scottish popular identity in check for his London masters”.
Honestly, how do you think such statements play out in the public arena?
The word “bulldog” will be associated with Churchill, moustachioed colonels, days of Empire. Words like “lapdog” and “London masters” could suggest colonialism. The word “forcefeed” speaks of an abusive relationship. The notion of trying to keep “Scottish popular identity in check” may indicate cultural suppression.
I would contend that such veiled language, variants of which are used day in, day out by nationalists, have a corrosive effect on relations. And that such language is being rehearsed and propagated via the internet is a source of no little concern to me.
2. In what sense do you think the SNP is “largely speaking” pro-English? I wonder how you would define “pro-English” and “pro-Scottish”.
3. I don’t accept – in any way, shape or form – this idea that exposing and challenging racism or xenophobia is to give it “airtime” and thereby validate it in some way. So your suggestion that George Foulkes is on a “mad” fringe because he has challenged the kind of language which can chime with and give succour to anti-Englishness, simply doesn’t wash with me.
4. You said: “There will always be Scottish bampots who hate England for no apparent reason”. Perhaps, as a matter of fact, there will. But I don’t see why it shouldn’t go unchallenged.
Research conducted in 2006 by Glasgow University’s Bill Miller and Asifa Hussain found that 38% of people in Scotland harbour anti-English feeling. Among nationalists that figure rose to 46% but even among unionists it was a disgraceful 33%. Don’t figures like that suggest a serious problem?
(By the way, anyone reading this long reply should feel free to address one or more of the numbered points above. I’m not trying to “snow” Jeff in!)
Thanks Malc.
So are you agreeing that the "viciousness" is more of a problem than it once was? If so, what do you think might be at its root?
I don't think there is one solitary cause. I especially don't think you can draw a line from SNP Government to idiotic vicious anti-English sentiment.
I don't know where your sporting loyalties lie Mr Unionist, but when I'm watching sport - particularly on the BBC but occasionally ITV, especially during large sporting events like football or rugby World Cups - I'm always struck by the sheer arrogance of the Anglo-centric commentary, like England has a divine right to win something. It's even more annoying when it is a match that England are not even involved in. That is perhaps one cause - especially when one factors alcohol (as a component, not an excuse) into the equation.
But there's much more to it. I think there has always been (to a greater or lesser extent) some form of resentment towards England as the larger partner in the union. I would suggest that maybe in the era of the Scottish Parliament there's an increased feeling of "why are they still running our affairs from south of the border?".
But that's just 2 potential causes - bet you can think of more.
This is Billy Connolly, the man who seemed quite enthusiastic about the 1916 Rising in his world tour of Ireland, England and Wales.
I'm English. I'm an active member of the SNP. I'm also an ex-member of the Labour Party. I'm not the only one either - in fact, there's quite a few of us.
As I've said before, what some unionists and Labour activists still don't get is that constantly playing negative politics is just not going to work. What the rest of us know is that: the sky didn't fall on our heads when the SNP won the election, the SNP is not racist or anti-English (despite the efforts of some to smear by association), screaming "broken promises" when the party has just been in power a year makes you just look silly, pointless FOI "trawls" from Lord Foulkes waste public money and make him look even sillier than his colleagues ... in short, this sort of politics just drives people further away.
If you wanted to set up a site for good natured and constructive discussion may I suggest that the wholly destructive posts about "cybernats" and "anti-english" etc is really not going help with your objectives. In fact its just starting to get insulting.
ps... just for clarity and to reassure I'm not deliberately posting with different monikers... I've changed my tag from "company law" - which I have to admit I haven't a clue how I ended up with that blogspot name in the first place!!
Chris
Leaves on the Line
I would be interested in your take on this:
"I'll tell you something that gets up the noses of Scots," said Ross Vettraino, a local council candidate for the SNP in Glenrothes, not far from Kinghorn. "If you say to the typical English person, 'What does the English flag look like?' They'll say, 'It's the Union Jack.' Well the Union Jack is the flag of the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland. "If you ask them what the English national anthem is, they'll say it's 'God Save the Queen.' Well, it isn't. They're so bloody arrogant. The English think they are the United Kingdom."
Ref: Los Angeles Times, 2nd May 2007
Not a lot. Its hardly rampant racism. And the sentence in the article you quote from puts it into context: "Many Scots have the impression that the English seem to have co-opted Britishness." Some could even read it as "its our union too"... although I doubt it ;-)
Anyway, this is totally irrelevant, as are your "cybernat of the day" postings. As you say on the justified spinner blog here "Why not play the ball rather than the man?". It would be nice if you could cut the personal vitriol from the blog and get back to debating issues... it has been done - the EU post for instance...
Chris
ps (again)... The website I've just seen says that Ross Vettraino has an OBE - hardly the badge of pride of someone that hates all things British.
Not a lot?! You're English, yet you don't think much of an SNP councillor describing the English as "so bloody arrogant"?
Sorry, but I just can't understand that. What would it take to raise your eyebrows?
This isn't playing the man. It's indicative of his ideology.
Why object to my "cybernat" posts but not their words?
And who do you think is guilty of "personal vitriol"? People who have a vitriolic attitude towards the English, or me for challenging it?
Hi scottishunionist,
I think what Billy said in the sentence after this particular quotation are quite illuminating as to the big yin's real opinions on matters political in Scotland. Billy stated that he is, or was, an internationalist. All well and good, and yet I can't remove the image of Billy as a wee lad pointing a jammy thumb at his chest and proclaiming to the world that 'he's a big boy, aye'.
I think there has, somewhat in Scotland, grown around internationalism a strange belief that sovereignty, independence, and internationalist ideals are at the opposite ends of the spectrum when, of course they're not, and the two ideals could be described as different faces on the same spinnin' coin. Mainstream internationalism amounts to a belief in countries working closer together economically and politically, in both the continental regions and in the international sphere, for a combined better politics for mutual benefit. Internationalism is not a movement to eradicate sovereignty and nor is it a belief that sovereignty should be eradicated or that sovereignty is, of itself, a bad thing. Internationalism is quite a sophisticated and clever form of neo-idealism that recognizes the role of sovereign countries and the need and benefits that could be brought about for those countries to work together, in other words, the perfect expression of neo-idealism.
Thus, when one considers, impartially, the ideals to which a sovereign Scotland aspire ie. in the EU, forming a Council of the Isles in the British Isles (social union, anyone?) and enjoying direct governmental representation in world affairs and institutions then, surely, a self-declared internationalist should have, at the very, very least, some small sympathy, at the very least, for the ideals of a sovereign Scotland. Hence, I think the big yin, to his credit, perhaps, is more closely apolitical and, on that occasion, opened his mouth and let his belly have a wee rumble about a subject few bellies are qualified to pass comment.
I don’t think the accusations stand because if people in Scotland detected for a minute the SNP were the type of party who would seek this type of politics for Scotland then I doubt for a minute people in Scotland would make them the biggest party in Scotland. If I thought, for even a split second, the SNP were like that then I wouldn’t associate myself with them. Sure, there are some idiots in Scotland, somewhere, and a few people have said things they shouldn’t have but to try to pin an SNP rosette on everyone is to try and take the Michael more than a little. Anyway, I am sorely tempted to say how apposite I find it that a Scottish Unionist is turning to a Scottish Comedian for political direction, sorely tempted, but I won’t, I’ll resist that temptation to the last, I tell ya ;-)