The SNP first set out their “Independence in Europe” policy in a February 1997 document entitled “The Legal Basis of Independence in Europe”, which is no longer either available or even mentioned on their website.An SNP press release from 2002 (now deleted from their website) claimed of independence:
Scotland and the remaining parts of the UK would be automatic members of the EU. This is a view that has been supported by former President of the European Court Lord Mackenzie-Stuart.Then in 2006, Alex Salmond wrote in the Scotsman:
Scotland is already a member of the EU and that would continue. It is not easy to leave the EU, as we saw with the attempts by Greenland when they won autonomy from Denmark.In December 2007, Nicola Sturgeon said:
It is the very clear view of the SNP and of the Government that Scotland would automatically be a member of the European Union upon independence. There is very clear legal opinion that backs up that position. I don't think the legal position, therefore, is in any doubt.So, as with other technical details to do with referendums, independence negotiations and the like, the SNP makes it all seem as easy as pie, clear-cut, a complete non-issue.
But a few days ago, Prof Robert Hazell, Director of the Constitution Unit at University College London, wrote in the Guardian:
Scotland would have to re-apply for membership of the EU. Renewed membership is not guaranteed. The reaction to Kosovo's claim to independence suggests that EU member states like Spain might block Scotland's application, for fear of encouraging similar claims from the Basque country and Catalonia.The issue of who is legally correct is less significant, as this stage, than this key question: “is the SNP being honest with us?” Is Prof Hazell in a minority of one on this issue? Is the overwhelming weight of legal opinion in the SNP’s favour? If so, fine. But if not, they’ve been glossing over the truth. And if that’s the case, why should we trust them on anything else?
So let’s see. First the SNP case. They generally cite one of six people in support of their position, the first being the aforementioned Lord Mackenzie-Stuart.
But in fact, he only said this:
Independence would leave Scotland and something called the ‘rest’ in the same legal boat. If Scotland had to reapply, so would the rest. I am puzzled at the suggestion that there would be would be a difference in the status of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom in terms of Community law if the Act of Union is dissolved.Not quite the same thing, is it? Secondly, the late Émile Noêl, former President of the European Commission. But his remark was actually as follows:
There is no precedent or provision for the expulsion of a member state, therefore Scottish Independence would create two new member states out of one. The remainder of the United Kingdom would not be in a more powerful position than Scotland. Unless Scotland expressed a wish to come out of Europe while gaining Independence, the will of the people would be interpreted as a desire to retain the European status quo.Note: “no precedent”. And anyway, who said anything about the “expulsion of a member state? The United Kingdom is the member, not Scotland. So again, it’s hard to understand why the SNP would imagine this statement to support their “automatic membership” contention.
Thirdly, the late Robin Cook. But all he actually said was: “It's in the nature of the European Union, it welcomes all-comers and Scotland would be a member”. I would have little doubt that’s true. But of course it says nothing about the application process or entry conditions.
Fourthly, the SNP claims heavyweight support from Eamonn Gallagher, former Director General of the European Commission.
In my view, there could be no sustainable legal or political objection to separate Scottish membership of the European Community. A democratic Scotland, fully capable of accepting and exercising its responsibilities in the European Union, answers completely to the constitutional and statutory requirements of membership, and the Community – with its customary practical ingenuity – could readily resolve the institutional questions that arise in, for example, those of Scotland’s voting weight in the Council, membership of Parliament, membership of the Commission and so on.It’s a similar argument to Robin Cook’s. But again, it’s by no means the same as the SNP’s claim of “automatic” membership.
Fifthly, French advocate Maître Xavier de Roux, who in 1989 said:
Scotland is a part of the Common Market territory by virtue of the United Kingdom’s accession to the Treaty of Rome and by application of the Treaty of Union of 1707. If the Treaty of Union was revoked and if Scotland recovered its international sovereignty, it would be accepted within the Common Market without further formality.Ah, finally! That’s much closer to actual support for the SNP’s position. According to his argument, the EU Treaty includes Scotland within its remit as the UK was acting on Scotland’s behalf when it joined the European Communities in 1973. So, on independence, Scotland could not be regarded as a new applicant state.
Finally, Prof Neil MacCormick. But he’s a former vice-president of the SNP. Enough said!
So, it’s nowhere near 6-1 for the SNP. It's barely 2-1. But now the case against.
1. Dr Joe Borg, EU Fisheries Commissioner:
Legally speaking, the continuation of the membership would remain with the rest of the UK - less Scotland. And, therefore, Scotland, as a newly independent state, would have to apply for membership.2. Dr Lorand Bartels, lecturer in international economic law at Edinburgh University:
Both as a matter of international law and as a matter of EU law, Scotland would have to negotiate its accession to the EU as a new member state.3. Dr Matthew Happold, then Research Officer at the British Institute of International
and Comparative Law, in a 1999 paper:
Were Scotland to gain independence, it would be the rump UK, not Scotland, that would inherit membership of the EU. Scotland’s subsequent route to EU membership could well be a tortuous one. The SNP’s use of the phrase Independence in Europe seeks to persuade the Scottish electorate that it can have its cake and eat it, that Scotland can have both the benefits of independence and the security of membership of the European Union. However, the real situation is that an independent Scotland might end up with all the insecurities of independence and none of the benefits of EU membership.4. Dr Jo Murkens, in a 2001 paper for the Constitution Unit entitled “Scotland's Place in Europe”:
If Scotland were to apply to become a member timing would matter because the EU is in a process of enlargement and the terms that an independent Scotland could negotiate would differ if the EU had 28 rather than the current 15 Member States ... The process of negotiation is unlikely to be easy even for Scotland. Evidence from other candidate countries suggests that the EU uses its pre-accession bargaining strength to extract the maximum concessions from acceding parties. Member States are obviously aware that once candidates have joined, existing Member States will never have such an advantage again.5. Neil Mitchison. In this 2007 Sunday Herald article, Torcuil Crichton wrote:
Neil Mitchison, Europe's man in Edinburgh, is the latest to challenge the assumption that EU membership would be automatic, as the SNP insist. There would have to be negotiations for such an unprecedented situation, says Mitchison, the European Commission's representative in Scotland.And Hamish Macdonell, writing in the Scotsman, said:
The Commission's representative in Scotland, Neil Mitchison, confirmed that Scotland would not be granted automatic entry into the EU, as the Nationalists insist.So anyway, this has turned into a marathon post and I’ve lost count of the exact numbers of experts for and against the SNP’s position, but I would suggest that on balance, the view advanced in this Scotsman piece by Jim Murphy, Minister of State for Europe, is plausible:
"The situation is unprecedented and therefore negotiations would be needed. Things would have to be discussed and negotiated," he said.
Despite what the SNP claims, the weight of legal opinion suggests that, far from automatic membership, an independent Scotland would find itself outside the EU and needing to apply to regain membership. It means Scotland joining the queue of countries for entry which could cause not just delays, but massive uncertainty.Of course, we can’t be certain that Murphy is correct, but that’s not the point. The key fact is that this is very clearly a murky legal area. And that in itself means that for over ten years the SNP hasn’t been being straight with us.
27/9/08 update: Lord Kerr of Kinlochard also disputes the SNP’s contentions.
4/8/09 update: Historian Michael Fry has said:
The prevailing opinion in Brussels, as I understand it, is that the continuing UK would inherit membership of the EU on the present basis. Scotland would not be treated as a successor country, and so would have to renegotiate its membership.



What about England/ Wales in the EU if/ when Scotland is independent?
What about pragmatism? Two points:
1. There is a current constitional crisis in Belguim, which has threatened to split the country. No-one has suggested that the new countries would not be EU members - would they really leave themselves with a situation where the EU capital was outside the EU.... a precedent perhaps in the making?
2. Would the EU really want the Scottish territorial water to fall outside the common fisheries policy?
Oh and Neil MacCormick is the Edinburgh University Professor Emeritus of Public Law and the Law of Nature and Nations ... and an accepted authority in the theory of sovereignty... Yes he may be a prominent member of the SNP, but he also knows what he's talking about...
Malc:
There would be a successor state – the UK, less Scotland.
As far as I know, the SNP doesn't think that Britain would be “exploded” into its four constituent countries. I was under the impression that that particular fantasy was reserved to those who would relish the idea of Scottish independence harming England, in particular.
Just think of the UK in 1922, the collapse of the USSR, Albania detaching from France etc. In each case the larger or largest remaining state assumed the international rights and obligations of the original state.
Company Law:
Unfortunately, Belgium may indeed be some kind of precedent in the making. But as I don't read either French or Flemish to the required standard, I can't really comment on any possible specifics.
Your point about what would become Scottish territorial waters is moot. I haven't taken a position on what would actually happen. The point of my post was simply to demonstrate that legal opinion is divided. It's a grey area, and so the SNP hasn't been telling us the whole truth.
And as for Neil MacCormick being an "accepted authority", please let's not play the "my professor trumps your professor" game. It's both unenlightening and unedifying.
>>please let's not play the "my professor trumps your professor" game. It's both unenlightening and unedifying.
You started it by dismissing his opinion as tainted and therefore irrelevant! That's the only point I was trying to make!!
Hmm. Well, OK(ish). If I pointed out that Neil Mitchison has a Lib Dem allegiance would that make amends? ;-)
You have a deal :)
BTW.. you may be already aware of this, but the Norwegian option (EEA) that some on our side do advocate appears to be strongly resisted by those more senior that understand the issues - yes it may feel "more" independent but in reality it just carries the costs and obligations of the EU club without having a voice in how those costs and club rules are formed. But hush, don't quote me ;)
Alex Salmond said last year that probably his central reason for wanting independence was that, in his opinion, nations are best when they govern themselves.
(He doesn't recognise that Britain is a nation, of course.)
As perhaps 70% of our laws stem not from Holyrood or Westminster but Brussels, not being part of either the EU or EEA would seem more in keeping with Salmond's "ideal".
And then there's the issue of monetary policy. How on earth would shifting that from the MPC in London to the ECB in Frankfurt make Scotland more "independent"?
It's logical contradictions like that which beg the question: "from whom do the nationalists really want independence?"
Some direct advantages of being independent within Europe:
- Increased representation (remember that the Labour Party wants to reallocate one of Scotland's MEP positions to the West Midlands and reduce our representation to 6
- distinct Scottish voice for distinctly Scottish issues within the council of ministers.
- Direct and effective participation in negotiations which affect Scotland - eg we have 70% of the UK fisheries, its a devolved matter, yet we have no voice etc... but please please please don't argue with me about bloody fish, not all Nats are hung up on bloody fish I can assure you :)
Company Law
Did I drag you out of your comfort zone? You've sought solace in the party line, replete with the hackneyed rhetoric: "no voice", "Scottish voice" etc. Ah well! ;-)
Incidentally, I don't entirely disagree with you on the fishing front. I can see some logic in Scottish ministers leading British negotiations in areas in which Scotland has a particularly high stake, as in the case of Flanders leading for Belgium at the Fisheries Council. Perhaps not the best example, given the foregoing, but you get the point, I'm sure!
Of course AM, if Scotland were to leave the UK there would be no UK.
Neither Wales or NI is a kingdom.
As England absorbed Wales before the Act of Union, England and Wales would still be a political entity, but as NI was formed after, it's standing as part of the supposed "rump state/inheritor state" would be on a shoogly peg.
(You were right about the Traction Avant by the way, it was Chairman Gordon;who is now deregistered from the Scotsman...)
Irrespective of whether or not an "independent" Scotland would automatically be accepted as part of the EU, there are two fundamental problems which would prevent it from doing so.
First, the SNP are opposed to the CFP. Unless you accept the fantasy that the rest of Europe would drop to their knees when the dear leader speaks and carry out his wishes at once, it would be impossible to be part of the EU whilst rejecting the CFP.
Secondly, the SNP position on Lisbon is for a referendum and a subsequent rejection (agreed unanimously at the last SNP conference). Given the problems the EU has with Ireland on the same issue can anyone really imagine the member states welcoming a Scotland opposed to Lisbon?
The problem here is that the SNP needs its "independence in Europe" line in order to 'prove' they are not just a bunch of reactionary 'little Scotlanders' (and to have a convenient place to blame for any ills in place of Westminster) but at the same time many of their strongest supporters are opposed to EU membership per se.
They cannot reconcile the irreconcilable.
And that's before you even start thinking about such absurdities as monetary policy post-"independence" being set from Frankfurt instead of London or a Scotland 'free' from Whitehall-led foreign policy but subject to a Brussels one.
Basically the SNP say that "independence in Europe" means that all the benefits of EU membership will continue and that any drawbacks would be magically airbrushed away.
That's notwithstanding current experience which suggests that the only thing which gets airbrushed away is SNP policy when it comes into contact with reality.
I agree with the Belgian example. If Wallonia and Flanders were to get in automatically (almost certain) then this argument will cease.
It is often argued that some countries (usually Spain is involked) would veto Scotland becoming a member as it would be seperatist state.
Is this the Spain that allowed sepratist state Slovenia (whose UDI triggered the Yugoslavian conflict) and the Baltic States (whose actions helped break up the USSR and bring conflict in Moldova, Georgia and problems between Armenia and Azerbajan over Ngarno Karabakh)?
Just wondering?
The UK exists because of the 1707 Act of Union and later the 1800-01 union.
The issue is opaque. Of course in a reversal of sepratism, East Germany became an EU member by uniting with the West with no problems at all. We tend however not to analyse the "reverse" situation where the EU absorbed an economy which under many circumstances would have waited at least another decade to get in.
It will be interesting what would happen if Moldova (one of the basket cases of Europe) was to be reunited with Romania with all its problems.
Interesting.
Also SU and Scotleag, I would like to hear your views on my wee polemic vis a vis Latvia and Latvian Russians that I left on your comment the Joyce McMillan article. Please do not say "that is different" or try to bottle it.
Should the USSR have stayed together? After all instead of being a wee insignificant country on the edge of Europe, Latvia as part of Russia or whatever would have influence on the UN Security Council, be part of the G8, be part of an outfit which the EU is scared of---.
That was what I was alluding to - that the UK is not the United Kingdom (or a united kingdom) without Scotland - given, as Conan says, neither Wales nor NI are kingdoms. So don't be quite as quick to assume that the UK would remain as is after independence.
Having said that - your right about the Soviet Union. The Commonwealth of Independent States (what a novel idea!) was the USSR's successor at the 1992 European Championships in Sweden (sorry - football is the easiest thing to use here!) followed by "Russia" at the World Cup in 1994.
I think the point to note is that - professor or not - no one is really sure about this since there is no real precedent.
But let me ask this - in a strictly non-SNP/ nationalist capacity. This is just speculatory. Would Scotland be better off outwith the EU were it independent?
Answers on a postcard...
Some interesting points there.
But returning to the central topic - whether or not EU entry would be automatic - the Aberdonian says "the issue is opaque" and Malc says "no one is really sure about this".
You're both absolutely right. We just don't know.
So why has the SNP been claiming that we do?
Aberdonian
I'm not sure that your USSR question (even once stripped of its polemic) is answerable. Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine etc were/are certainly nations. The status of the USSR is more problematic. For example, the Soviet army illegally annexed Latvia in 1940. Also, the legality of the 1944 Soviet conquest of Estonia was disputed. There's obviously no such international recognition issue in respect of the United Kingdom!
Aberdonian,
Not quite sure why you mention me along with SU re some comment on a thread I have made no contribution to but as far as Latvia and the USSR is concerned then the situation is indeed different, no matter how much you might dislike that term. Trying to compare the UK with the USSR is fatuous at best and downright insulting at worst. I'm not aware of any British gulags nor of any armed invasion of Scotland in the 1940s. The situation is NOT like for like no matter how much some of the outer limits of nationalism wish it were.
Now, regarding your comment about Flanders/Wallonia and saying this argument will cease in the event of a Belgian split and both successor states being admitted to the EU: this will only be the case if they accept current EU rules, including CFP and Lisbon.
The difference here is that the SNP do NOT accept the CFP or the Lisbon Treaty. Now while Lisbon may well be fudged to some extent to accommodate the Irish, that still doesn't mean the SNP will change their position of a referendum and a NO vote.
As long as the SNP maintain their current positions on both these issues then an "independent" Scotland could not possibly become a member of the EU.
Of course quite why anyone would want to leave a union of four but not a union of 27 is another matter entirely
Latvia, Lithuuania and Estonia had been part of the Russian Empire before 1917.
In the 1917-22 mess, particuarly after the German surrender, a number of states appeared and disappeared from the territory ceded by Brest-Lvostik. Finland (after fighting a bitter civil war to prevent annexation back into the Kremlin's sphere) won its independence. Ditto the Baltic States and Poland. Recognised by the Allies/
Ukraine and Belarus were not so successful. Both declared independence (not recognised by the Allies) but were crushed by pro-Moscow forces ending their vile sepratist dreams.
The Romanian part of Moldova was annexed into Romania. Moscow refused to recognise this and promptly seized the territory back in the 1940's.
The Caucuses formed a united Georgian-Armenian-Azeri state only to fall out with each other. The Turks under Ataturk invaded the region from the south and the Reds and Whites from the North. Eventually horrified about being annexed into Turkey, the three peoples did a deal with Lenin to get Ataturk off their backs. Lenin gave him some territory (some sacred to the Armenians) to knaw on.
Then Lenin and his crowd having brought much of the old Russian Empire to heel, got the leaders of the various regions to set up the USSR properly under the act of union of 1922.
Stalin got similar people from the Baltic States and the recently aquired territories from Finland, Poland. Czechoslovakia and Romania to sign up to the same thing at the end of WWII.
Remember the allies recognised these annexations under Yalta. So they were not illegal as they were recongised by interational law.
Concerning the brutality of Stalin and his successors, this brutality extended throughout the USSR. No peoples, not even his native Georgia was exempt from his brutality. It happened to Russians, Kazakahs, Ukrainians etc. Arguing that the Baltic States are a special case some people might say is promoting "a victime mentality".
Remember that in 1707 the union was carried out under the generally accepted threat of military intervention if Edinburgh did not play ball. What is the difference between the early eighteenth century where democracy was retarded here and a region in the 1940's where democracy was extremely retarded.
Also you did not answer the question about the people who suffered when the USSR broke up.
My goodness, such deep thought and detail. Can we just step back for a moment and take a broader view.
It is inconceivable that post-independence the EU would not immediately accept either Scotland or the remains of the UK simply because in the case of "England" it wouild not want a country of 50 million souls and one of the world's largest economies adjacent to its shores but outwith its membership or in the case of Scotland "expel" the only oil-rich nation within its borders.
Please, the whole issue is just a ruse by Scottish Unionist to muddy the waters of the Independence argument. He defies common sense.
Rab O'Ruglen
You appeal to “common sense”.
So do you think that Dr Borg, Dr Bartels, Dr Happold, Dr Murkens, Mr Mitchison and Prof Hazell are also involved in a “ruse” to “muddy the waters”?
Are the other experts, whose exact words don’t quite match up with the SNP’s “interpretation” of them, also attempting some kind of “ruse”?
Is it “common sense” to imply that they are?
The simple fact is that when complex legalities are involved, we have little choice but to be guided by the experts. In this case, their opinions differ, so we can reasonably think of it as a grey area.
Notwithstanding Scotleag’s points about the CFP and Lisbon Treaty, none of the dozen or so experts referenced in my original post have suggested that either Scotland or the so-called “rump UK” couldn’t be EU members. Such a situation would indeed seem to be inconceivable.
But just saying that, as if it resolves the whole issue, is to miss the central point. The differences of opinion among the experts relate to the nature of the EU entry process: ranging from “without further formality” (Maître Xavier de Roux) through to “tortuous” (Dr Happold).
That’s why the SNP’s point-blank insistence that accession would be “automatic” is less than honest.
Oh dear, lots of confused Nattist comments here, somehow claiming the UK would cease to exist if Scotland left.
Try looking at the label on the tin:
"United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."
Which was the product of THREE Acts of Union (1536, 1707 and 1801) and one partial secession (1922).
So, minus Scotland, the UK would remain a union comprising three entities. I would expect it to quite happily change name to "UK of England, Wales and N Ireland" and tell the rest of the world to get used to it, despite any hair-splitting objections.
And as for whether it would be the "successor state", for EU and other purposes?
Of course it would. There would be a solid legal case, and I suspect the practical position would be "We have 90% of the population and economy, nuclear weapons, the UNSC P5 seat and we're a huge net contributor to the EU budget. Anyone who says we're not the successor is welcome to step outside."